HomeMy WebLinkAbout03-08-2012 Housing & Community Development CommissionAGENDA
HOUSING AND COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT COMMISSION
CITY HALL, EMMA HARVAT HALL
410 E. WASHINGTON STREET, IOWA CITY
THURSDAY, MARCH 8, 2012
6:30 P.M.
1. Call Meeting to Order
2. Approval of the February 16, 2012 Minutes
3. Public Comment of Items Not on the Agenda
4. Staff/Commission Comment
5. Discussion Regarding FY13 Community Development Block Grant (CDBG) and HOME
Investment Partnership Program (HOME) Requests
• Review Project Rankings
• Discuss Average Allocation Worksheet
6. Adjournment
MINUTES PRELIMINARY
HOUSING AND COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT COMMISSION
FEBRUARY 16, 2012 — 6:30 PM
SENIOR CENTER, ASSEMBLY ROOM
MEMBERS PRESENT: Andrew Chappell, Michelle Bacon Curry, Scott Dragoo, Charles
Drum, Jarrod Gatlin, Holly Jane Hart, Rachel Zimmermann Smith
MEMBERS ABSENT: Cheryll Clamon
STAFF PRESENT: Steve Long, Tracy Hightshoe, Doug Ongie, David Purdy
OTHERS PRESENT: Kristie Doser, Jeff Vanatter, Roger Lusala, Patte Henderson,
Becci Reedus, Beth Ritter Ruback, Kari Wilkin, Barbara Bailey,
Tashundra Marshall, Mary Palmberg, Heather Harney, Jane
Drapeaux, Larry Chandler, Ron Berg, John Shaw, Bruce Teague,
Tom Gilsenan, Brian Loring, Roger Goedken, Mark Patton,
RECOMMENDATIONS TO THE CITY COUNCIL:
None.
CALL TO ORDER:
The meeting was called to order by Vice -Chair Andrew Chappell at 6:30 p.m.
APPROVAL OF THE JANUARY 19, 2011 MINUTES:
Bacon Curry moved to approve the minutes.
Drum seconded.
A vote was taken and the motion carried 7-0.
PUBLIC COMMENT FOR ITEMS NOT ON THE AGENDA:
None.
STAFF/COMMISSION COMMENT:
None.
HOUSING AND COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT COMMISSION
FEBRUARY 16, 2012
PAGE 2of11
NOMINATION AND ELECTION OF OFFICERS
Chappell stated that they need a chair and asked for nominations. Zimmerman Smith
nominated Andy Chappell.
Bacon Curry seconded.
A vote was taken and the motion carried 6-0-1 (Clamon absent, Chappell abstaining).
Chappell stated that they need a vice chair and asked for nominations. Zimmerman Smith
nominated Jarrod Gatlin.
Hart seconded.
A vote was taken and the motion carried 6-0-1 (Clamon absent, Gatlin abstaining)
PUBLIC MEETING:
DISCUSSION REGARDING APPLICATIONS FOR FY13 COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT
BLOCK GRANT (CDGB) AND HOME INVESTMENT PARTNERSHIPS PROGRAM
(HOME) FUNDING
Chappell stated that the purpose of this meeting is for the Commission to ask applicants any
questions or concerns they have about that project. He passed out a summary of what's been
requested and noted that the HOME minimum allocation is $424,477 and the total amount
available is estimated at $1,204,851, which is just under 2 million less than the amount of the
applications under consideration. He noted that the $1,204,851 figure includes some recaptured
funds and asked staff if that had happened yet.
Hightshoe explained that the Neighborhood Centers of Johnson County (NCJC) was allocated
$395,000 in a CDBG special allocation round. She said NCJC was going to buy a property in
Pepperwood Plaza, but that the purchase wasn't able to proceed as the seller decided not to
sell the property at this time. Hightshoe explained that because NCJC wasn't able to find an
alternative location, those funds will be reallocated in this funding round. She said it will greatly
increase the amount of money available to allocate, but staff will review the projections of
program income and hopefully have HUD's final allocations by the March 22 meeting. She said
that if other projects are not able to proceed, those funds will be reallocated. She reminded the
Commission that they do not have to spend all the money that is available. Hightshoe reminded
commission members that the $424,477 figure (minimum HOME award) is part of the
$1,204,851, not in addition to that amount.
Hightshoe said that staff reports were mailed out to Commission members and each agency,
which included concerns that staff had with the applications. She said it is not necessary for the
Commission to address those concerns, but if they wish to, representatives of the applying
agencies are in attendance to answer questions. Hightshoe told the Commission that in the last
two days, staff and some of the HCDC members have been making site visits. She said that
photos will be available at the Commission's March meeting.
Chappell said the first project was the Community Mental Health Center.
HOUSING AND COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT COMMISSION
FEBRUARY 16, 2012
PAGE 3 of 11
Drum asked Shaw if they had looked for other funds. Shaw stated the center does multiple fund
raisers, such as the trivia night events, but stated they have not done one specifically for this
project. Zimmerman Smith asked if he foresaw any problems with the renovations having to be
approved by the State Historic Preservation Office. Shaw said he is confident that nothing in
the plan will be contrary to the historic preservation requirements.
Chappell asked if any capital campaigns had been done. Shaw stated that in the past two and a
half years, the Center has not done a capital campaign. He added that investing in restoring
structures that have found a viable adaptive reuse is crucial to keeping those structures in town,
and the project in question is exactly the kind of investment that will allow these structures to
continue.
Chappell noted that the next project is the Crisis Center renovation of the neighboring building.
Bacon Curry asked to be updated on the status of the acquisition of the property. Reedus said
they had a meeting this morning with the county board of supervisors and there is a work
session scheduled for next Wednesday morning. She said there was much support from the
board, with three of the five members solidly behind the project and willing to discuss some
purchase options.
Zimmerman Smith asked if staff foresaw a problem having several agencies in the building with
documenting the low -moderate income benefit. Hightshoe noted that agencies must document
the LMI benefit the year they are funded or until project close-out if it extends past the one year.
Some projects will have multi -year compliance periods following close-out depending on the
amount of funds allocated to that project. After project close out, but during the compliance
period, agencies don't have to continue documenting LMI benefit for CDBG public facility
projects. They do still have to continue providing the services or activities required in the
agreement. Reedus stated most of the agencies already track client income and shouldn't be a
problem.
Zimmerman Smith said it was her understanding that the Crisis Center would be renting space
to its partner agencies and asked if the rent they will be paying is in addition to their budgets.
Reedus said that in the past week they had discussed that doing a combined capital campaign
with all the agencies is a better option because of the positive feedback they have gotten from
all areas of the community. She explained that in the initial figures they gave to the agencies for
their monthly rental, it would be an increase but the directors of the four agencies identified
ways to recapture some of that money. Reedus said a successful capital campaign would
reduce a private loan and lower the rental costs to the other agencies. She said that the key
idea of acquiring this building is to pool the resources of the four agencies and reduce
administrative overhead and costs.
Chappell stated that the next applicant was the DVIP Shelter.
Drum said that he had toured the facility today and he was struck by this facility in particular
because the kitchen is an area where all the women in the shelter cook meals for their children
and the shelter views this as an opportunity for the women to connect with their children and
with other mothers. He said this is a wonderful chance for these families to re-establish
connections that they may have lost with others. He stated that this is a really good use of
funds. Drum said he thinks it is very important for Commission members to go on these tours so
they can see the staff and the clients they are serving.
HOUSING AND COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT COMMISSION
FEBRUARY 16, 2012
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The Commission accepted some layouts and bids from Doser pertaining to the DVIP project.
Gatlin asked if the project was broken up into segments so that if the Commission were only
able to partially fund the project it could be prioritized into which piece would have the highest
priority. He also asked about the costs of potentially just doing the floors versus the entire
project. Doser explained that the kitchen bid doesn't include the kitchen flooring. She said the
rest of the flooring bid is for the main floor and the bedrooms area. She stated that the absolute
priority is the kitchen, as it has not been updated since it was built in 1993, and things are
starting to fall apart.
Chappell stated that the next applicant was Extend the Dream and PATV.
Bacon Curry said she thought that the accessibility improvements were funded when Extend the
Dream moved into the building. Gilsenan stated they were funded, but the former Director
started some of the improvements before they could and as a result the funds were withdrawn.
Hart said she wanted to know about the first couple questions that staff had brought up, which
are the capital reserve budgets and what other entities have been approached for funding.
Goding replied that this year PATV was able to set aside $6,000 for capital improvements and
that's entered into the budget. He said that they have not sought other funding sources at this
time. Gilsenan said they have received a $5,000 grant, which was the impetus for getting them
started and doing this work in the way they would like it done and they expect to raise $3,000 -
$6,000 more in fundraisers they have planned for the spring and summer.
Gatlin asked how good the costs estimates were. Gilsenan said that they have three estimates
for each of the phases.
Hart asked where the patio was supposed to be built. Gilsenan explained that it would be on
the right side of the building with an overhang above the parking below.
Hightshoe explained that the adaptive audio and video technology they applied for is technically
a public service so it's not eligible under the public facility category and that part of their budget
would not be able to be funded with CDBG funds.
Chappell asked how they planned to document the low -moderate income benefit. Goding said
he expected that PATV would use the surveys Extend the Dream uses. He said they do that
continually through self -reporting to find out who they are serving and which of their services
they are using.
Hightshoe explained that anything that would directly benefit Extend the Dream would be
eligible and that what directly benefits PATV would be limited to accessibility improvements due
to the difficulty in documenting the low -moderate income benefit.
Chappell stated that the next applicant was Broadway Townhome Playground Renovation for
HACAP.
Bacon Curry said she had seen some weathered mulch at MECCA and asked if they had
looked into that instead of wood chips. Drapeaux affirmed that they had. She said that the mulch
is less expensive than the chips at MECCA, but you have to replace it more often.
HOUSING AND COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT COMMISSION
FEBRUARY 16, 2012
PAGE 5 of 11
Chappell asked if it was similar to the surface at the Pedestrian Mall in downtown. Drapeaux
said it was a bit thicker. Chappell asked if there was a warranty built in. Drapeaux said there
was, but that they had installed those foam surfaces at other facilities at HACAP and haven't
had a problem.
Chappell asked what kind of equipment they planned to install. Drapeaux said that there is a
playground expert employed at HACAP who will assist in the design. She said when they bid a
project they work with playground companies who are skilled at choosing age -appropriate, safe
equipment.
Bacon Curry said that it appeared that 100% of the clients served by this playground would be
Iowa City residents and asked where the tenants lived before entering HACAPs units. Drapeaux
stated that they lived in Johnson County when they entered the program.
Drum asked how many children lived there. Drapeaux replied that approximately 60 children
lived at the Broadway Townhomes.
Zimmerman Smith asked if they have a replacement budget. Drapeaux affirmed that they did.
Drum and Zimmerman Smith agreed that this is a project that is needed.
Chappell stated that the next applicant was Mayor's Youth Empowerment Program.
Drum asked if this was the same project that they had applied for last year. Lusala affirmed that
it was and that due to funding they are completing the project in phases. Drum asked what they
would do with partial funding this time. Lusala said they would upgrade the electrical and
heating as their first priority as needed before they can drywall and complete the project.
Chappell stated that the next applicant was MECCA Residential and Transitional Housing
Renovation.
Zimmerman Smith asked why the security cameras were last on the list of priorities. Berg
responded upon review, it would be their first priority.
Drum said that less than half of MECCA clients are from Iowa City and asked if they had
approached other agencies for funding. Berg said they complete several grant applications
each year for funding for services, but hadn't approached anyone for facility needs as few
sources will pay for this type of activity.
Chappell asked if they had done a capital campaign. Berg said they had not. He said their
strategic plan includes an assessment of all their facilities, and that will probably lead to a
capital campaign. He explained that the projects in this request would not be affected by any
capital campaign funding.
Chappell stated that the next applicant was Neighborhood Centers of Johnson County.
Dragoo asked if they had a capital reserve budget. Loring replied that they do and use it when
necessary. The costs of these items are above and beyond their regular maintenance items.
Zimmerman Smith asked if the remodeling of the Broadway Center would substitute for the
property at Pepperwood. Loring replied that they are trying to open up some space that would
allow different staffing patterns that would make a more efficient use of staff.
HOUSING AND COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT COMMISSION
FEBRUARY 16, 2012
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Dragoo asked which components would have priority if they received partial funding. Loring said
they were listed in priority order and that they would really like to get the basement done.
Chappell stated that the next applicant was Charm Homes LLC.
Bacon Curry asked if there was a location for the project. Teague said that they are continually
looking at various houses.
Dragoo asked what partial funding would mean for them. Teague stated that it would mean they
would be unable to purchase the two homes within their planned timeframe of next fall and
spring. They would do one house if partially funded.
Zimmerman Smith asked if they had experience with these types of projects. Teague replied
that they have. One of their homes is operating and is full with residents who need 24-hour
care. They also own another property and they are working on getting it Medicaid qualified and
completing what rehabilitation needs to be done.
Chappell asked how they proposed paying back the loan. Teague said they are proposing a
deferred payment for 10 years and then $1,000 per month for 10 years and then a balloon
payment at the end of those 20 years.
Hightshoe explained that this is the payment plan Teague had worked out with Long based on a
revised proforma. It's a plan that would support enough revenue to cover debt service and
operating expenses.
Chappell said he noted that some of the property locations Teague had been looking at were in
the Lincoln and Longfellow areas of Iowa City. Teague explained that there are no location
restrictions as the tenants are persons with disabilities or the elderly.
Chappell asked what their prospects were of finding affordable properties. As sites can be
anywhere in the City, he said there were quite a few possibilities. Gatlin asked where the
properties are located that have already opened. Teague replied that one is on Lakeside Drive
and the other is at 619 Kirkwood Ave.
Bacon Curry asked if he was confident about private financing for these homes. Teague replied
that he is confident.
Chappell stated that the next applicant was CJ's Construction
Hightshoe explained that the applicants could not attend the meeting and requested that staff
forward any question to them. Hightshoe informed members that they were denied State
HOME funds as they were not able to attend a mandatory state training. The applicant
budgeted for these funds incorrectly under the Low Income Housing Tax Credit line item - it
should read State HOME funds.
Chappell asked if they had control of a site yet and if existing zoning laws would allow for this
kind of use. Hightshoe said that according to City Planner Sarah Walz, this does meet the
existing zoning requirements and rezoning is not necessary, although a Special Exception may
be required. Chappell requested that staff inquire if they have an accepted purchase offer.
Hightshoe will follow up with the applicant.
HOUSING AND COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT COMMISSION
FEBRUARY 16, 2012
PAGE 7 of 11
Bacon Curry asked what was the $450,000 they were allocated the last time they applied.
Hightshoe said they had applied for the Single Family New Construction program and did not
get awarded funds. These are federal CDBG funds, but not part of our CDBG annual
entitlement program.
Chappell asked if their developer fee will have to be adjusted down. Hightshoe said that would
only apply if they were allocated state HOME funds as you can't exceed 10% for this type of
project. Staff would recommend, if funded, to be consistent with the State program and lower
the developer fee.
Chappell stated that the next applicant was the HACAP Broadway Townhome Renovation
Project.
Hart asked if they foresee any relocation issues during the renovation. Drapeaux said the
majority of the work will be exterior and for the rewiring, they will do a unit at a time so people
won't have to be relocated.
Chappell said that the application states that the building condition has been deteriorating since
they acquired it in 1996 and asked if there is a plan to make sure this doesn't happen again.
Drapeaux explained that is simply normal wear and tear and it's time to replace the roof and
windows, among other things, and make them more energy efficient.
Hightshoe said she reviewed their proforma including replacement reserves. She said in her
review, she increased the reserves based on the State's criteria for non LIHTC projects. She
said there are mechanisms to ensure funds are placed into maintenance and reserves over the
life of a project. Revenues were based on $441/mo., when the fair market rent for a three
bedroom unit is $1,087. Based on this average rent, there are no funds available for
repayment if adequate funds for reserves are included in the expenses. She recommended a
conditional occupancy loan based on annual review of tenant rents received and documentation
of funds placed into a reserve fund or used for repair/replacement. Repayment may be possible
in certain years where the revenues exceed what is anticipated in this application, while
adequately budgeting for reserves.
Gatlin asked if there are priorities for the exterior work. Drapeaux said that the roof is their #1
priority.
Hightshoe said that the last time they assisted these units was in 1996 with CDBG funds and a
general obligation loan that they are still repaying. She said this project is both HOME and
CDBG eligible.
Chappell asked if the City funded HACAP units recently. Drapeaux stated that prior year
funding went for the acquisition of additional transitional housing units, not to rehabilitate
existing units.
Chappell stated that the next applicant was the Housing Fellowship - CHDO and Affordable
Rental Housing Project.
Chappell asked how they were going to obtain the property. Bailey stated they have a purchase
offer contingent upon these funds. Chappell asked what the timeframe was. Baily stated they
would purchase in July 2012.
HOUSING AND COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT COMMISSION
FEBRUARY 16, 2012
PAGE 8 of 11
Chappell asked if the state HOME fund application had been submitted. Bailey said it had.
Chappell asked if they still viewed this as an all or nothing in terms of funding. Baily was under
the impression that this was the case.
Chappell stated that the next applicant was Iowa Valley Habitat for Humanity.
Bacon Curry asked how their projects break down in terms of school attendance areas and if
they build other places (than the Whispering Meadows subdivision and surrounding area).
Patton explained that in the past three or four years there haven't been many other places, but
that they do have a house scheduled to be built at Douglass Court and they are remodeling a
house on Prairie du Chien because it's where they can find affordable lots and these
lots/houses don't have strict covenants. Many subdivisions have covenants that require the
house to be a certain size, 2-3 garages and/or other amenities. Patton stated that due to their
modest homes, they have to locate lots that don't have these requirements. He said his
perception is that in the places that they have built in the past three or four years, crime is down
and the houses built have stabilized the neighborhood.
Patton said that he doesn't think that the CITY STEPs low priority level for owner occupied
housing — production of new units should apply to their homes as they provide homeownership
opportunities for families under 50% of median income at a level more affordable than most
rental units. This is possible since Habitat finances the loan with 0% interest.
Chappell asked if they were going to be able to do all three homes along with projects already in
the works. Patton said he doesn't worry about it and that on these projects they will be having
veterans working on them. Bacon Curry asked if they have locations picked out for the rehabs.
Patton stated not yet, but believes they will find the homes that they need. The last few years
there have been more homes at the price level they need.
Drum asked if Habitat deals with the lead rules. Patton said they had three trained people who
have gone through classes for that, but admitted that he didn't want to buy a really old house
because that can be a nightmare with lead issues.
Hightshoe explained that if they spend more than $24,999 on rehabilitation of a home then lead
abatement applies. All homes built before 1978 are subject to lead provisions and testing
depending on what is done.
Chappell stated that the next applicant is City of Iowa City Housing Rehab.
Chappell asked about the $20,000 for project delivery. Vanatter explained that those are
administrative costs and that it applies to the whole program, not per home. He said applicants
aren't allowed to ask for a split between CDBG and HOME funds but the reason he included
that was because with the CDBG program they can be more flexible with emergency repairs
and exterior repairs, whereas with HOME funding they are limited to comprehensive repairs.
They are hoping to do a larger number of projects than estimated in the application.
Zimmerman Smith asked how people qualify for this program. Vanatter said they apply through
an existing housing rehab program that has a two-year waiting list, even though they haven't
advertised the program in five years.
HOUSING AND COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT COMMISSION
FEBRUARY 16, 2012
PAGE 9 of 11
Drum asked if it was true that this program would not exist without the funding being considered
by the Commission. Vanatter said this program was different than the existing program in that
these funds are targeted to homeowners in identified neighborhoods and instead of the
homeowner paying 100% of the loan back in either monthly installments or upon closing, they
will forgive a certain percentage over a 5 or 10 year period based on the funding source and
amount allocated to that home.
Hightshoe explained that City Council sets aside 13% of the CDBG and HOME entitlement for
rehab. She said that in prior years, the rehab program was receiving $400-500,000. Due to
ongoing cuts in these two federal programs, the rehab set aside is down to about $200,000.
She said that when you factor in staff costs (manage the program, oversee lead regulations,
etc.), far fewer projects can be done. She said there is the regular program that people apply for
and then this program will be in addition to that and it's targeting neighborhoods with better
financial terms, so a part of the loan will be forgiven as opposed to the homeowner having to
pay back everything.
Vanatter said that if it was funded and there was a lot of interest, it was their hope that they
could target other areas. He added that they used to see $100,000 to $200,000 in program
income annually through rehab but that they don't see that anymore. He said the year to date
program income is currently at $12,000.
Hightshoe explained that many rehab. projects are done and the rehab. loan is repaid when the
homeowner sells their home (moves out, passes away) or refinances. This repayment is
considered program income and goes back in the rehab. program in addition to the yearly
entitlement funds. When the economy is not as strong, fewer households move or refinance
their homes. In addition to having less entitlement funds, we have less program income coming
back to be used for additional rehab. projects.
Chappell stated that the next applicant was Successful Living.
Chappell asked if this was the same application as last year because it's not on the current
application form. Goedkin was not aware that he submitted the application on the wrong form.
Chappell said he would like to see an updated application, as the new form is different than the
old one that was used.
Drum asked how many residents they currently had. Goedken replied that they had 18 with the
potential for 20.
Chappell asked what they would do with partial funding. Goedken stated that would depend on
the funding level. He said that their roof had been leaking for a couple years and needed
replaced but that if funding level isn't up to at least $35,000 they couldn't do that. He said the
HVAC system needed work but wasn't sure what they could do on that with partial funding. He
said the roof and HVAC remain their top two priorities and that residents have had to move out
of the house for periods of time when the HVAC wasn't working.
Hightshoe said the ranking forms and proposed allocations are due back to staff on February 24
and a master spreadsheet with everyone's totals will be in the March 61h packet. She reminded
the Commission that due to spring break, they will not be meeting the 3`d Thursday in March, but
rather on March 81h and March 22th at Emma Harvat Hall.
HOUSING AND COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT COMMISSION
FEBRUARY 16, 2012
PAGE 10 of 11
Hightshoe said the Commission made a funding recommendation for the Aid to Agencies Joint
Funding Process. MPOJC is handling these funds until June 30. After that the Community
Development department is anticipated to administer these funds. She said there was some
confusion about applying this year. She said there were three agencies that only get funded
through Iowa City. These agencies apply through the joint funding process but only ask for
Iowa City funds. She said these agencies weren't notified by the United Way or by MPOJC of
the funding process/deadline, so they didn't apply. Hightshoe said she informed those three
agencies that since HCDC has already allocated the funds, they can make direct requests to
City Council to consider those requests. She said the Council can tweak the recommendation,
send it back to HCDC or approve as is. She said the agencies are Youth Consortium (County),
the Red Cross and Mayors Youth. More details will follow based on the Feb. 21 Council
meeting.
ADJOURNMENT:
Drum moved to adjourn.
Zimmerman Smith seconded.
A vote was taken and the motion carried 7-0.
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CITY OF IOWA CITY
MEMORANDUM
DATE: March 1, 2012
TO: Housing and Community Development Commission
FROM: Community Development Staff
RE: HCDC Meeting on March 8, 2012
Thank you for the many hours of time and energy that you have put into the allocation process
up to this point. Below is a brief description of the March 8th agenda items.
At the upcoming meeting you will be discussing the FY13 applications, funding amounts and the
rankings. At this time, HUD has not approved final allocations for entitlement communities, thus
we will continue to anticipate the funding as stated previously in regards to our annual
entitlement funding. This meeting is desined to help you finalize the ranking sheets and adjust
your funding amounts. At the March 22 meeting, HCDC will finalize their FY13 CDBG/HOME
budget recommendation to submit to City Council.
The application for CHDO operating expenses is a HOME eligible project only. The application
from Successful Living is a CDBG eligible only project. All other housing applications are both
CDBG and HOME eligible. Of the total available, $424,477 must be allocated or reserved for
HOME eligible housing activities. Based on your preliminary funding allocations, this
requirement should not be a problem.
Included in this packet are your preliminary rankings and allocations. Please review your scores
and allocations. If you notice any errors, please contact Tracy Hightshoe so we can make
corrections before the meeting. After the March 8th meeting, please submit your revised scores
and/or allocations to staff if you make any changes. The revised spreadsheets will be ready for
your review for the March 22"d meeting.
If you have any questions regarding this information, please feel free to contact Tracy Hightshoe
or Steve Long at 356-5230.
Please remember that both meetings (March 8 & 22) will be at City Hall,
Emma Harvat Hall at 6:30 PM.
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