HomeMy WebLinkAbout2018-05-10 Transcription Page 1
Council Present: Botchway (left at 5:48 PM), Mims (amid 5:05 PM), Salih, Taylor,
Thomas, Throgmorton
Council Absent: Cole
Staff Present: Monroe,Andrew, Dilkes, Fruehling, Miklo, Bristow, Sitzman
Historic Preservation Commission: Swaim, Agran, Boyd, Builta, DeGraw, Karr, Kuenzli,
Michaud, Wagner
Planning& Zoning Commission: Freerks, Parsons, Signs, Theobald
Throgmorton/Okay, so let's begin our City Council work session and joint meeting with the
Historic Preservation Commission, and Planning and Zoning Commission, on Thursday,
May 10, 2018. I wanna tell you that Rockne Cole cannot join us today due to a
conflicting court case and Susan Mims is running just a few minutes late, so she'll
appear,uh, you know, sit down and join us. Be good to introduce each other, uh, so...just
state your names, please, as we go around this way. John.
Thomas/John Thomas.
Michaud/Pam Michaud.
Freerks/I'm Ann Freerks.
Swaim/Ginalie Swaim.
Agran/Thomas Agran.
DeGraw/Shari DeGraw.
Kuenzli/Cecile Kuenzli.
Wagner/Frank Wagner and I guess this means we're on Historic Preservation Commission, the
yellowish one. (several responding)
Boyd/Kevin Boyd.
Theobald/Jodie Theobald.
Parsons/Max Parsons.
Builta/Zach Builta.
Karr/GT Karr.
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Salih/Mazahir Salih.
Botchway/Kingsley Botchway.
Taylor/ Pauline Taylor.
Throgmorton/Frank, maybe it means the paper's older(laughter) All right, so let me thank all of
you Commissioners for meeting with us today, including Mark Signs who's coming in
right now. Uh, I can't remember having a joint meeting involving, I don't know, 20
people or whatever the number is...here. I wanna briefly recap why we asked you to meet
with us, and Eleanor, as usual, please correct me if I go awry in anything I say. Yeah. So
at the Council's April 15 meeting, we tentatively indicated that a majority, but not a super
majority of the Council, favored historic landmark designation and rezoning for the
houses at 319 East Bloomington and 410—412 North Clinton. Because owners had filed
a petition, a....a protest, a super majority is required for Council approval. Since the
Planning and Zoning Commission had recommended approval, we are required to offer
to consult with that particular commission. We also thought it would be wise to make a
similar offer to the Historic Preservation Commission, though we are not required to do
so. I also want to provide a little bit of guidance to those of us on the Council. Each a...
each of us in the end—not tonight—each of us in the end needs to clearly articulate the
rationale for our votes regarding the designations, especially if we intend to vote in
different ways with regard to the two houses. Voting for landmark designation because
one values historic preservation, or owner....over an owner's preferences is legitimate.
Likewise, voting against designation because one values the owner's rights more than
preservation is also legitimate. So too is supporting action that involves some kind of
win-win synthesis. What is not legitimate is to treat the two properties differently
without having a clearly stated rationale for doing so. Last, we're not going to be making
any formal decision tonight. Instead we are seeking information that will enable us to
make the best possible decision when we meet next Tuesday night. So, with that....our
thought is to begin with Bob Miklo, who will review the situation and,uh, concerning
both houses, right, you gonna do both in one, at one time or you gonna do the(both
talking) one of'em first?
Miklo/ (unable to hear)
Throgmorton/One at a time, okay (both talking) Well, that'd be fine. Let's do it that way. So
we're gonna do, which one, we're gonna do....
Miklo/Uh, Bloomington Street first.
Throgmorton/Bloomington Street first, and then we'll process it and then turn to the Clinton
Street property. Bob!
Consultation regarding rezoning Historic Landmark Designation 319 East Bloomington
Street:
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Miklo/At your Council meeting, you asked for some information about zoning,uh, for this block
and what(both talking)
Throgmorton/I'm not hearing your voice as if it was actually being amplified.
Miklo/Urn, at your, uh, last Council meeting you asked us to do a zoning analysis of this
particular block and what, uh, what might happen to,uh, the properties surrounding the
Bloomington Street, if it is designated as a, um, as a landmark. Um, I would point out
that the,uh, we looked primarily at this half of the block, the north half, uh, which, um, is
all zoned, uh, CB-2, which is our Central Business Service Zone. Urn, there is an
existing landmark on the, uh, same, um, block. The....the Haunted Bookshop on....on
Gilbert Street. The, uh, CB-2 zone is a,uh, commercial zone that allows residential on
the upper floors. Urn, it allows, um, a floor area ratio of two and a maximum height limit
of four, um, and that's....somewhat a....a complicated, a n....zoning tool, uh, that would
indicate for a floor area ratio of two, you could take the site and cover the entire site with
a two-story building or you could take the site and cover half of it with a four-story
building. It's the, uh, the, um.....ratio of the building footprint to the...to the....to the
land that has a....a maximum of...of two. Uh, there is a bonus provision that could
allow it to go up to a...um....uh, three, if, uh, certain things are done with the
development. Urn (clears throat) we look primarily at the, uh, the lot that's used by
Pagliai's for parking because it has the most development potential. Urn, it was also the
easiest to apply the zoning code to. Urn, I would, uh, point out that these are very
conceptual. Urn, we didn't have a lot of time or a lot of information on these properties.
So it may be possible that, um....uh, a more dense development could occur. It may be
possible that a less devel....dense development could occur, but based on similar
properties, uh, with the same zoning, this is what we think is....is a likely, uh, scenario,
or a couple of likely scenarios for this property. Um (clears throat) to maximize, uh,
development potential, uh, we believe that a developer would put parking, urn,
underground, and that's been done elsewhere in the CB-2 zone. Um, so we laid out what
the maximum number of spaces could be achieved underground. Urn, and then we also
looked at, uh, what could be achieved on the, uh, ground floor. There are some zoning
standards that say, uh, that you cannot have parking within 30 feet of the street. The idea
is to put a....a storefront along the street. Uh, so we did a scenario showing how
someone might maximize the residential, uh, development potential of the property by
putting as much, uh, of, um, the property towards parking as allowed by....by zoning.
And in that, uh, scenario, uh, we think there's a, uh, the possibility of, uh, one level of
below-ground parking, uh, the back of the site having, uh, a surface parking lot,um, and
then a building, uh, built along the street and then partially over that parking lot. Urn, we
estimate that, um.....um.....with this scenario, uh, there'd be a possibility of 92 parking
spaces, which....which support roughly 48 bedrooms and one-, two-, or three-bedroom,
uh, combinations. Urn, so the....the point of this illustration is to show the scale of the
building that might occur adjacent to the potential historic landmark. The, uh, second
scenario we looked at this as if...if a developer was trying to, uh, maximize the
commercial potential of the property. In....in that case they would not put as much of
the, uh, ground floor into, uh, parking but would do more commercial square footage.
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Uh, the underground parking would be...be the same. And in that scenario, urn, we
estimate that, urn, there would be a total of 74 parking spaces, which would, urn, support,
um...uh, roughly 40, or excuse me, 30 bedrooms, either in three-, two-, or one-bedroom,
uh, combinations, um, and the reason for the less square footage is because the...there's
more commercial space, therefore more commercial....more of the parking is devoted to
commercial and less, uh, parking is, uh, devoted to....to residential. Therefore the
building may end up actually being smaller, uh, and....under this scenario. One other
thing to keep in mind is that we do have some form based code standards in our CB-2
zone, uh, that require that, uh, large buildings be broken up into, uh, smaller scale. This
is an example of a building in this very same neighborhood, built to the CB-2 standards.
Urn, those standards require that there be storefront windows. That there be some
articulation of the building that...rather than having one,uh, long, unbroken building that
there....there be some, uh, setbacks or relief to the....to the building facade. Urn....so,
again,just to illustrate, this is the....the sort, or type, of development that we would
anticipate in, uh, this....this neighborhood. There's also in the, uh, in....nearby another
recent building, a two-story building with a third floor stepback on a smaller, uh, property
in the neighborhood. Urn, and there are two, uh, smaller properties in this same block.
This is the, uh,the proposed landmark, the existing landmark, and then two, um....um,
dwellings that are currently owned by Mercy Hospital. If these are to redevelop, it would
likely be that smaller building scenario. Urn, looking at those, um, buildings, it's going
to be more difficult, uh, to devep....devel...excuse me, develop them individually.
Someone would most likely have to buy two of them to do much of any development,uh,
on...on those properties. And again, given the,uh, zoning standards, the, uh, types of
buildings we've seen recently in the CB-2 zone is what you would likely see in terms
of....of scale. Urn....so I think the...my main point is that even with the existing CB-2
zone, the scale of the buildings, um, is....is reasonable compared to the two-story, uh,
potential historic, uh, building. Uh, as you know, we have been working with Opticos, a
consulting firm, uh, and we are looking at the potential of doing, uh, more form based,
uh....uh.....codes in this area, um, which may further refine what's....what's allowed.
Be happy to try to answer any questions about what I've covered so far.
Throgmorton/ I have a question, Bob. So....the owners of the Boomin...Bloomington Street
building own, uh, property that has, uh, a newer....annex in the back.
Miklo/Uh huh.
Throgmorton/Would they have any redevelopment potential and if they did what....what would
be the constraints on it?
Miklo/Urn, yes....urn, sorry, I don't have a, uh...uh, slide showing (mumbled) maybe we do.
(mumbled) but all of this is....is new construction and this is a surface parking lot. If this
was designated landmark, it would be possible to take that part of the building off and
rebuild on the backside ofof....of the lot, urn, and again, similar to the scenarios for the
two smaller, uh, lots, urn it would likely be a smaller-scale building, urn, than what
you would see on the Pagliai's lot. Ur....and again, the....these....the zoning would be,
uh, commercial on the ground floor. In this case, it might be possible that the whole
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ground floor of the addition could be devoted to parking,because it is far enough back
from the street that the...the zoning code allows that. And then the upper floors, uh, could
be residential.
Throgmorton/Okay, so there would be...anyhow, I'm not saying anybody wants to do this, but I
just....just to make sure that I understand. The owners of the property could redevelop
that property in the back, while still complying with the historic landmark designation.
Miklo/Right, right. Right, there would be a design review by the Historic Preservation
Commission to...to help assure that the new addition would be compatible and....and, uh,
with the historic building.
Throgmorton/Does any...what I'm thinkin' is we could turn to....to the Historic Preservation
Commission in a second and ask Ginalie to explain why they're recommending landmark
designation and.....and then maybe to Ann and, uh, so that Ann could say why you
recommended approval of the rezoning. But, are there any other questions for Bob?
Freerks/Maybe one does open space play a role in any of this? I know that newer building
that you showed has a rooftop garden. Are there some type of stipulation (both talking)
Miklo/Right. Um....in....in the CB-2, uh, zone we currently do not have a requirement for open
space. Uh, we do in our Riverfront Crossing zones and some form based codes do but
there currently is not a, uh,requirement.
Freerks/Okay.
Throgmorton/In the spirit of brainstorming.....and not leading to any particular conclusion here,
uh, I've heard some talk about, uh, some interest in, uh, exploring the feasibility of
possibly establishing, uh, an urban park of some kind on part of Pagliai's property, if in
fact it gets to the point where they're interested and so on. So....in the hypothetical, if
say....uh, half of their lot, or maybe a third of their lot is, would be designated for an
urban park, am I correct in assuming they would still be....the owners, would still be
constrained by.....the zone, the CB-2 zoning in terms of height, etc.?
Miklo/ Would this be a public park or a private...park or....
Throgmorton/Uh, yeah, I guess I'm thinkin' a public park...uh,park, probably dedicated.
Miklo/Yeah. Under our current code, yes, uh, devoting part of this property to a park would
reduce the amount of parking and therefore the amount of commercial and residential
square footage that would be possible.
Throgmorton/Okay. Any other questions for Bob? All right, if not, let's hear from Ginalie
about why the Commission recommended landmark designation. Yeah.
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Swaim/Well first I want to thank the Commissioners for coming early. We have another
meeting at 6:30, and two....two were not able to come. Urn.....we recommended,
um....uh, designation of this house because we were, urn, holding true to our
commitment to the preservation plan. Urn, goal one is identifying historic resources
significant to our past. Uh, and in the preservation plan goal 10 is about strategies to
preserve historic neighborhood which reflect or....organic development,historical roles
and traditions, modern needs and economic health and stability, and goal...objective six,
incorporate historic preservation efforts in planning for the Northside Marketplace retail
district, and that plan specifically refers to this house as a significant historic property.
Uh, we also designated it, urn, because it meets the criteria of a....a landmark. So in...in
the process for that, in 2015 at the request of Council, uh, the...we, uh, created a sub-
coni....a sub-committee which began an extensive process of proactively identifying
historic resources and as objective three of our preservation plan directed, prioritizing the
most important or threatened resources, and we believe that because this is in the
Marketplace where there is, uh, space that could be developed upon that this is a
threatened resource. Urn, we... the house clearly meets the criteria that are required, uh,
and more. It's significant to American or Iowa City history, architecture, archeology, and
culture. Well, history and architecture. It possesses integrity of location, design, setting,
materials, and workmanship. This is a very intact example of an Italianate house. Urn,
it's associated with events that have made a significant contribution to the broad patterns
of our history, and in that case it's because of the brewing industry, which was very big
in Iowa City in the 1870s and 80s and 90s, and I think I detailed some of that at the
public hearing. And also in terms of the roles of the German and Czech immigrants in
the neighborhood, and it's associated with lives of persons significant to our past, that
being Conrad Graff, one of the brewers. Urn, it's important to know that we are not
trying to save every old house. (laughs) That's not our intent at all! But only the ones
that rise....rise to this level of significance and as I said, it's ve...extremely intact
example of that. Urn, there were some other points I'd like to make at some point, but
these are the....the reasons and terms of following our mandate and criteria that we, urn,
recommended landmark.
Throgmorton/You said upon...the request of the Council.
Swaim/This was in response to the(both talking)
Throgmorton/You wanna elaborate just a little bit?
Swaim/ Sure! Urn, so there were three historic, uh, Civil War-era cottages on South Dubuque
Street. The, uh...were going to, uh,be torn down for development and they had been
actually identified for some time in the Comp Plan I believe, but urn, despite a huge effort
by the community and preservationists, um, we did not...win those cottages and they were
taken down, and it was, urn, quite a, urn, unfortunate controversy, and uh,with....uh....
and we don't like having controversies (laughs) over Iowa City, and....and in response to
that, as I understood it, the Council asked us to make sure we're proactively identifying
these houses, uh, so that we're not trying to do 1 hour, urn, saves of houses. Is that
how you remember it?
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Throgmorton/It is.
Swaim/ Okay!
Throgmorton/ I know Susan was on the Council then too. Were you, Kingsley? Yeah.
Swaim/Okay. So that's when we undertook this process of looking one by one at historic
houses and such.
Throgmorton/Right. Thanks. Uh, any questions for Ginalie? (mumbled) like to ask one more
question. So....the owner's objecting.
Swaim/Uh huh.
Throgmorton/ So why is the Commission.....um, why does it want to proceed with the historic
designation, despite the fact that the owner's objecting?
Swaim/Well we believe the house is certain....um, a community asset. When you have, um,
only maybe, uh....a wonderful historic house like this is high in terms of significance. It
is really part of the community and is our job to preserve, uh, these houses. We believe
that the, uh...um.....restrictions on a landmark are quite minimal. Um, and that it can be a
very helpful thing for an owner, and that, uh, in general it helps the neighborhood and
stabilizes a neighborhood, and we....our job is to protect houses, not necessarily to
protect individual's investments.
Botchway/To that end, Ginalie, I've been talking to a number of different people that are
focused on that particular point, as far as the process, um, not only necessarily being
somewhat, um....t wouldn't....maybe cumbersome is the word I'm trying to use. I can't
remember exactly the word that was used. Cumbersome on the front end just by the
identification of the property. Not very friendly on the front end as far as (mumbled)
property, and then maybe some miscommunication as far as....using your word, minimal,
um, changes that may occur,um, after historic preservation designation. Can you speak
to those pieces as far as like the process (both talking) and then also going back to kind of
the minimal changes (both talking)miscommunication that may occur?
Swaim/Um, and I'm....and I'm sorry if the process seems cumbersome. It's....it's, as I
understand it, because this is a zoning overlay, um, it's the same process as with other,
urn, zoning changes. Uh, so it begins,uh, with, uh, we send out a letter to the property
owner, saying that our...this house is recognized as a, uh, eligible for the National
Register and historic resource and such and...and invite them to a meeting, at which we
discuss the landmark process, and uh, we did that with the...the group of them and the,
one of the owners of this house came to the meeting. Um, and then it goes to....and so
there's time for discussion, questions, answers, and so forth. Um, and then the first part
is the....then it goes to our Commission, urn, and basically we look at the criteria and our,
uh, mandate, and vote yes or no on recommending it. If we rec...and then it goes to P&Z,
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and then on to you. Urn.....I can't.....speak to whether it seemed friendly or not (laughs)
urn, I hope it did. Urn, we have about 50-some other individual landmarks in Iowa City
so it's not a new or unknown process. Uh, I do think that because it is a zoning change,
sometimes zoning seems like something that's, uh, burdensome, but it's...part of living in
a community and....as...as far as I know. In terms of the minimal, um, if there's nothing
that needs to be done to a house once it's landmarked,that isn't required of, urn, you
know, your basic maintenance. I mean if you're cited for neglect or something like that,
that would be nothing different for a landmark than it would for any other property. If
there is any exterior change that the owner would like to make that would require a
building permit, then that app...the person makes an application to, urn, our staff...our
staff and Commission, and works with us to come up with the best solution, and often
the....the applicant may have the best solution. We may suggest some tweaks that make
it, uh, more appropriate for the style.....it depends on how, um, practiced the....the
applicant or....or contractor is. Um, and we, uh, provide(laughs) really fine architectural
design service because of our staff person, and sometimes there's a fair amount of work
and sometimes there's not very much at all, and depending upon the level of the degree
of, uh, exterior change, it may be approved just by the staff person or by the staff and
myself, which means it's quite quickly, or if it's a larger project, then it would go to the
full Commission and probably be decided at the monthly meeting. So....does that answer
(both talking)
Botchway/Yes!
Swaim/Okay.
Botchway/Thank you!
Salih/You know, urn, as I said last time in the meeting, this is really.....the whole thing is very
new to me, but I was trying to read the policy that been created by the Council for this to
have like those(unable to understand) for our city. I understand those like really gonna
be the back of the fabric of Iowa City. That's why (unable to understand) but while I was
reading(unable to understand) case by case.
Swaim/Could you say that last...(several talking)
Salih/Like case by case....
Swaim/Case by case.
Salih/Like sometime if the case, you know, you can look at it case by case, I mean, not
everything because they are, you know (unable to understand) we just have to move
forward(both talking)
Swaim/ Sure!
Salih/And in this case though the owner is rejecting.
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Swaim/Uh huh.
Salih/And um....what have you done to convince them....when they said no? And also why you
don't look at it case by case?
Swaim/Well we....well we do look at it, I mean it's not a....a.....that a house has to have a
cert....um, let me see how to answer(both talking)
Freerks/ Well there's a plan in place, and I think, if I may, urn, step in a little bit.
Swaim/ Oh please!
Freerks/(mumbled) and...we try to take the emotion out of something like this and look at it very
strategically, as to how it is for the greatest...for the community, and how this....we are
just stewards of everything here. All of us around here. It's just, you know, we're in a...
we're in place and time here and we're....we see these properties go through time.
We've identified these properties very specifically. This one is in the Comp Plan twice.
It's in the Central District Plan. It talks about it. It's in Historic Preservation, talks
about....and so because of that, it does call it out very specifically, and so it...it is, on a
case by case basis,both of these properties would elevate to that level. Now the fact that
the property owner, urn, doesn't necessarily want to go along with that, has not always
been a part of what we look at for the long....big picture. If we did that, Iowa City would
be a much different place right now, and it would look very different. So I think even
looking back, we see the errors that we made and we see the positive things that we did,
as well. I was in Boston last week. It's amazing to see the history there. I'm not
comparing us directly with that,but every community has its places, its special spots, I
think, and it was interesting, I spoke to people from London and their aspect of what's
historical, you know, and so (clears throat) it's all about context and how we look at it in
our own community and we come to the plan and how....this is, these are the pieces, the
tools that we have, to make these decisions, and I...I frankly think there are ways for
people to make money with historic properties. I live in a conservation zone. I've never
thought anything was outrageous. I've always thought that things were very simply done
and easy. That's my experience. So, um, I don't know if I've kind of answered your
question, but I try to kind of bring it back to the Comp Plan. I don't know if
you....(several talking) looked like you were gettin' ready! Go ahead, John (both
talking) (laughs)
Thomas/ ...(both talking) and that is, um, what per....do we have an idea of what percentage of
land in Iowa City is under either....has a specific landmark or conservation or historic
district? What....what kind of coverage are we talking about?
Freerks/Be very small.
Miklo/We don't but I....I, uh....we could calculate that (mumbled) less than 10%.
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Freerks/For any kind of overlay zone, I think. But as far as landmark, um....they're minimal. I
don't know the list exactly but....
Throgmorton/Ann, you said that both of the houses we're going to discuss tonight are explicitly
called out in the Comp Plan,but I think you referred to something else? (both talking)
Freerks/ I meant just the one, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Throgmorton/Just the Comp Plan?
Swaim/And if I could ask (mumbled) ask your....answer your other question. Um,we, after the
initial meeting with the owners,um, then the public hearings, the three public hearings
of...as you know have an opportunity for the owners to speak and such. Um, and so, uh
.....that's, was...is a very useful tool. We want everybody to be able to....to speak their
peace and....and talk about it, um, because this house, um....the hearing was held over to
continue next week, I did meet with the owner, um, and one of the neighbors who's
protesting too, to try and see if there is a way that we can find the common ground to,
you know, to just share our opinions, uh, because....but....but in the end we're looking at
the house. And...and the long-term and this is a remarkable house and we would like it to
be here for generations after all of us move on (laughs) to some great space above.
(laughter) Does that help?
Throgmorton/ What's the zoning designation for that great(several talking and laughing)
Thomas/It's a form based code. (several talking and laughing)
Throgmorton/Very high, that's right!
Karr/ I just wanted to add, before I forget, I'm sorry! I was reading the Historic Preservation
plan and in the introduction it does say that the historic and conservation districts offer
protection to over 1,100 properties, and that was from 2008, and I don't know if we
updated it in 15 or 10 when you did it but...I'm just reading it right here.
Throgmorton/But...different kinds of protection.
Karr/I understand that, yes. (several responding) Just as a point of reference. You can see the
maps in there too. I didn't physically count the houses, no.
Throgmorton/ So, Ginalie, uh....I wanna kind of restate something, uh, that I think I heard you
say. Uh, at least my translation. The Commission's doing what it is tasked to do....
Swaim/Uh....absolutely!
Throgmorton/It's following existing procedures with regard to its own process and then the
rezoning and all that. And it's basing its recommendation on the published, specified
criteria.
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Swaim/Yes!
Throgmorton/Yeah. Okay, so....that's helpful to know. And when you were, uh, describing....
when you were answering my question about why you would proceed despite the
owner's objection....
Swaim/Uh huh.
Throgmorton/ ....I heard you say the house is a community amenity.
Swaim/Asset I think.
Throgmorton/Asset, thank you. Uh, the restrictions are quite minimal. I wanna make sure I
write this down. The restrictions are quite minimal. Um....it would help stabilize the
neighborhood.
Swaim/Uh huh.
Throgmorton/What else? I know you mentioned somethin' else.
Swaim/Well, I think it's sort of a linchpin to the Marketplace. Urn, and the historic character of
that. Um, which is a human scale size neighborhood and a n....it's been there as....as,
uh, related to the commercial ar...nature of the neighborhood,because the brewer lived
there. Um....and that Marketplace, uh, the, I think we all hope that it will continue to
protect the human size, warm (laughs) uh, historic character, even though there may be
some....there certainly will be some additions, um, and that house is, you know, there are
other landmarks. The....the brewery, the St. Mary's Church, the....Union Bakery, the,
um (several talking)bookstore, Economy Advertising. They are not all right next to each
other, so they cannot be a district exactly,but there is, uh, in my mind a critical mass
there and losing one house might change all of that. So...I see it as.....the Marketplace is
a community asset and...and this is a piece of that. (both talking)
Throgmorton/Thanks.
Swaim/My other....Commissioners may have a....other things to add.
Kuenzli/I think it's one of the rare examples where you see how, uh, commercial buildings,
commercial structures and residential structures of equal beauty, um, were...resided next
to each other, or within proximity of each other, and I can't think of any place else in
town where that would be so. I mean the house,besides which the house is just drop-
dead gorgeous. Every time I drive by I have to be careful because I just...swivel to look
at it (laughs)um, and as Ginalie said,by its origins,uh, the brewer who built it and by the
materials that were used, it is an integral part of the Brewery Square neighborhood and
as....in,to that extent I think alone it...it deserves pro...designation and our job as
Commissioners on any commission is to take the long view of what is best for the
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community, and disregard everything, I mean this house is gorgeous because the owners
have maintained it beautifully, but without that designation it could be gone in five days.
Urn, and so we just think by its nature and its history and its materials and its
architectural style, it belongs to that significant area of town which you have already, urn,
distinguished, urn, and that's why.
Throgmorton/Great! Any other questions for Ginalie or the Commissioners? I have a follow up
question I'll get to after we hear about the second house, but not yet. Okay, Ann. (both
talking)
Freerks/Well (clears throat) Ginalie(clears throat) explained it quite well, but we go as a
commission to the Comp Plan. Our, uh....what we look at are criteria.....are quite clear,
and it does, uh, the Comp Plan supports the designation of these properties. Urn, if we
look to the IC2030 even, urn, there are goals, um....to provide a broad set of goals and
objectives for both preservation and change, but, um.....when I tal....we talk about
compatible in....development, urn, we want....it.....we want to rehabilitate existing
structures and encourage new development on vacant,blighted, or deteriorated properties
in these areas, and I think that clearly this structure is not...fall into any of those
categories. Um, and urn, you know, the goal also to support the Historic Preservation
Cosmis....Commission's efforts to meet its goals, and urn, this follows in that. You
know I think we can go back further than the cottages. That was the specific timeframe
where this was, um....kind of an assignment that was given by the community, through
City Council, to the Commission—Historic Preservation Commission—to go out and,
urn,you know, a plan was put a....put in place, and a commitment was kind of loosely
made I think at that point to say....we've....we don't want to do this in the 11°i hour, like
she said, but to actually try to search out and to be proactive. So the Commission.....and
the City, is following that and it seems....wrong in my mind to try to at the last moment
then say that we....we want to put other restrictions or thoughts upon this. I think that,
urn.... you know, a path was agreed upon and certainly we're not chasing marginal
properties. These are only properties that are elevated to a very high level. Um...you
know we can go back and think about the old Public Library. I mean that was a building
that was, um ....had potential to be, uh, demolished and the community, uh, came
forward and, urn, there was conversation and in the end I think a wise decision was made
and the building itself was prop....protected, but it can be.....it was reused in a way that
the, urn, owner was able to make money with it, and the lot around it. If you see, if you
walk back there, urn, you know, the lot around it was able to develop and so that is
something that clearly could be done in this case, I think, as well. There's a way to be
able to have that, you know, if you look....walk past the old Public Library, you can feel
that sense of history, you can understand it, you can go back and look and see it. But
you, you know, it's also ....become a part of the landscape in a way that people can live
there and it can be student housing, as it is used right now. So....um.....you know, and
I....and I think we can go back even further to find mistakes that were made and things
that were not...that when we hadn't preserved them, and that's why we're to this point
where we're kind of trying to hand on and to really identify key structures and that's
important. So I don't know if that helps, if that's what you're looking for.
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Throgmorton/It's helpful. Any questions for Ann? Or the....or the Planning and Zoning
Commissioners for that matter. I thought I remembered reading in the minutes that there
was some....some discomfort expressed by some Commissioners about the, I don't know,
the rezoning and designation, uh, of the site. Uh, but in the end the vote was unanimous,
right?
Freerks/Uh huh.
Throgmorton/It was 5-0. So....uh, do we need to know about whatever that discomfort was?
Freerks/In my past....meeting with Commission, we've always talked about our vote as a whole
and how we support that, but if you'd like to hear from individual Commissioners, I'm
sure that they could give you information if they want to.
Throgmorton/Yeah, I think it'd be helpful to know...about any particular discomfort that the
Commissioners still have.
Freerks/Yeah!
Throgmorton/Or express them.
Signs/All eyes turned to me! (laughter) Um....you know as....as a realtor, um,I...I....I struggle
with property owner rights, um, and I'm not....and I....and I'll be honest, I'm not always
on the....on that side necessarily. Um....I see in....in this property, in particular, I see a
....a....I guess I don't see this block of....of historic nature. Um, I see, uh, over 50% of
the block is a parking lot. Um.....and other more modern structures. I....I....I personally
do like, um.....I do value historical properties, and that's the....that's the struggle that I'm
having. The....the value of the historical properties versus, uh, a landowner's property
rights. And....um, one of the things that....I've....I've made some notes during some of
the comments here and it...you know, one of the things that I've always struggled with,
uh, with designating something....beyond the owner's wishes, is....is the compensation,
or lack thereof, to that property owner. Urn, it....it seems to me if we make a statement
that the community values these properties,then you could continue that statement by
saying the community should pay for these properties. Urn, and that's a whole other
issue. But I think it's....I think it's....it's a valid, urn, I do personally think that one of
the arguments that the homeowner made at our hearing was, you know, they're
concerned about their....the property values, and I....and I do think, urn, this designation
on this piece surrounded by what's surrounding it...does limit the potential for that
property.... value. That's just my personal opinion. Urn, and I've not done any, you
know, I've not done a....lot of great research to....to back that up, but I certainly could do
so. Urn, so that's just kind of what I....what I struggled with at the....at the, at our
meeting was the... the community, um, the community value versus the homeowner
rights, the property owner rights. Urn, you know, in an ideal world, it'd be something
that we could pick this house up and take it and put it on a lot that was in a more historic
neighborhood. Um, the other....which....which gets back to another point that was
made. The other thing that, urn.....I think there's a difference between a....between a
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residential property that sits in a predominantly residential neighborhood versus a
residential property that sits in the middle of a commercial neighborhood. I think....
Freerks/I'm gorma have to disagree with you on that. I'm....I'm, you know, we could go around
and round about this you and I, but I think that, you know, we think of....Faneuil Hall in
Boston. That, there....there's a building there that is surrounded entirely by skyscrapers.
(mumbled) and people, my husband said, you know, there's just the wonder of to see that
building in this place and to feel that sense of history there.....is an amazing thing. It
completely brings you back in time at that moment. That one structure. That one little
three-story I think it is building in the middle of that. So to me, a single structure has
absolutely nothing to do with it when it comes to, urn, something like that, and that's just
my personal feeling on it, um....and if we talked about property values, I mean we could
go round and round about that through all the years (laughs) of all the rezonings, I think,
and it's never been anything that we've, um, been asked to take into consideration by
staff, and I think that(both talking)
Throgmorton/I don't wanna stimulate an extensive debate (talking in background) (both talking)
Freerks/ ....but I think that (both talking)
Throgmorton/ ...understand what the objection was.
Boyd/ Well I think it's important to recognize that this house was once....basically in an
industrial area, right? It was...it was attached to a brewery that was....
Freerks/Right.
Boyd/ ....six stories and producing material and probably smelled and so....I think it's, part of its
history is that it wasn't in a neighborhood. It was in a....essentially an industrial brewery
district, and so I think, you know, as we talk about parking lots, or not parking lots, like it
doesn't seem that....the parking lots seem like the modem day equivalent of like a...an
industrial site, a brewery I guess,that's in a neighborhood. Um, so I think it's important
to kind of remember that this house wasn't really in a neighborhood. It was in a....in a
place that was similar to what it is now. (talking in background)
Michaud/Okay, thanks. This is Pam Michaud. Um....I, you know, my mom was raised in
Galena, Illinois. There...it's all historic and I know that can't happen here, sort of, but I
don't trust the parking lot to be there forever, because I've seen this movie before.
Behind my house. And now there's a 15-story skyscraper going within a block and a
half, and a solid block of four-story buildings behind my house, within 9-feet of my
property line. Um, so I have strong feelings about that, um, and I think that if we regard
it as a special landmark, it should be set aside as a jewel, and I think the idea of having
more setback is a reasonable compromise on other par....adjacent properties. To make a
public park perhaps. Incorporating the front yard. Otherwise you've got this little thing
back in an alley between two huge stu...structures. So, um, you know, yeah, it could still
be a law office or a medical office, and the back of the lot could still be developed in a
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Page 15
higher scale because of some compensation....in height. However, uh, I think to, urn,
optimize it, the adjacent property owners could, uh, set back a little bit,make more of a
public space. That' sin the ideal world.
Throgmorton/Okay. That's.....
Freerks/ I do want to mention (both talking) one more thing. I think that there's sometimes a....
we've seen this at Planning Zoning. There's a misconception by people....people think
that you can build, because there have been very tall buildings built in Iowa City, that you
can build them in lots of places, and um, I think it was a wise exercise for you to have
staff go through and kind of explain and talk about what actually could....perhaps be
done in this spot. I mean we're not talking about hundreds of bedrooms. We're talking
at about a maximum of 48 bedrooms, in that huge area that is a parking lot. So when you
look at this (clears throat) if you're gonna talk about trade off, what you could have on
that small lot really is not a....a substantial number of bedrooms if you're talking about
something like that. It's just a point I want to make.
Throgmorton/Yeah, and I....1 guess I'd add one other thing with regard to what Mark said. I
wanna make sure I understand one thing. You are drawing attention to, uh, the....I guess
the fact that...if we designated this property as a historic landmark, that would be
constraining the value of the property. And I think that takes,tell me if I'm wrong,
that... that kind of assumes that the nearby property would develop at....at a scale similar
to what Bob put up on the screen for us, and then the landowners would say, hey, we
could make more money by demolishing the building and doin' somethin' else there, is
that correct?
Signs/Right. I mean, yes, I think the value of the other properties surrounding it would be more.
Throgmorton/Right. Okay. Thanks. I wanted to know that, and one, uh, other comment is that
if I understand correctly....the....the house is currently being used in a commercial way?
(several responding) Not a residential way? (several responding) Yeah. Okay. All
right, any other questions for Ann? Yeah. Sorry, Kingsley has to depart for other
commitments.
Freerks/Watch it on TV! (laughter)
DeGraw/I was....I was gonna add that after our meeting...a few weeks ago, I guess it was the
City Council meeting a few weeks ago, I went online and looked at examples of historic
architecture with contemporary architecture built around it,just to preserve the jewel.
They were amazing, exciting examples, and when I think about it now, the footprint of
the building isn't that large, and a lot can be done all around it, and then keep the jewel. I
think the architects in the area would actually think that's an interesting challenge. It
could win an award easily, if done right, and we would have the benefit of the old
building and exciting architecture around it.
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Throgmorton/Great. Thanks! Does anything else have to be said, or any(laughter) Council
Members wanna say anything? Ask any questions? Okay, I think that means we can
shift to the Clinton Street house, 410 to 412.
Consultation regarding rezoning Historic Landmark Designation 410—412 North Clinton
Street:
Miklo/ Okay(clears throat) so, uh, this property is zoned RM-44, which is high density multi-
family. The properties around it are zoned, uh, similar, uh, with the exception of the
University across the street, which is zoned for public use. (clears throat) We, urn,
examined what could be done on this property under the current zoning, if the house is
removed, and estimate that.....um, anywhere between eight and....there could be up to
eight three-bedroom apartments, uh, 12 two-bedroom apartments, or 24 one-bedroom
apartments, provided the parking can be provided on the site, and we weren't able to de
....determine that, but we think that's probably a fair estimate of what could be achieved
here. Um, the, uh (clears throat)uh, following the, uh, the zoning standards, if someone
maximized the....the footprint and the square footage, uh, we estimate that, uh,
approximately an 18,000-square foot building could be built here. That'd be 18,000-
square feet on three floors, uh, assuming there would probably be parking in the....in the
lower level. If the, uh, historic, uh, aspect of the property was preserved and the rear
modem addition was removed and the rear property was redeveloped, uh, we estimate
....using the, uh, existing square footage of the house, adding on to it, uh, approximately
15,572-square feet of floor area could be developed. Um, this is, uh, roughly 86, 87% of
what could be done under the maximum, if the, uh, if the landmark building is....is not
designated. Um, so yes, there will be somewhat of a diminishment of, uh, square
footage, uh, but it's, urn um. uh, not a great diminishment, roughly, uh, 13, 14%. I
would note that the, um, the zoning code also provides, um, incentives to keep the
building in place, if it's a landmark. Uh, there are possibilities of waiving some of the
other zoning, uh,requirements to allow,uh, reuse of the property and an addition on...on
the back. Uh,be happy to try to answer any questions.
Throgmorton/I was tryin' to type all that, write it all down, and I didn't catch everything, Bob.
So....
Miklo/We could certainly(both talking)
Throgmorton/ ...could you go back over some of the key points, please?
Miklo/Sure! Um....if it was a vacant site, uh, based on maximizing the zoning potential of the
property, we estimate that a, uh, a three-story building, uh, could be, uh, built, with
approximately 18,000-square feet of floor area. If the building is preserved, and the...the
historic part of the building is preserved and the modem rear addition is removed, and
the, uh....uh, existing building is reused, and a new building built in the back part of the
property, we estimate that, um, approximately, um, 15,572-square feet of total floor area,
both the old and the new combined, could be achieved on the property, uh, and that's
86.5% of what could be achieved with total new construction.
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Throgmorton/Did you say how....thank you. Did you say how many, if it's assuming this is
developed residentially, did you say how many units could....be provided?
Miklo/Um, the zoning density, and we're not sure that this could actually be achieved based on
the parking, but the maximum zoning density would be 24 one-bedroom units, 12...or 12
two-bedroom units, or eight three-bedroom units, or some combination, uh....uh,thereof,
but, uh, basically 24 bedrooms could be achieved.
Freerks/If the parking is....
Miklo/If the parking can be provided.
Throgmorton/Thanks. That was quite helpful. Let's go through that same...well, any questions
for Bob? From Councilpeople. All right, I don't hear any. Thank you, Bob. Ginalie?
Swaim/Okay, and I want to add one thing that pertains to both this house and the other one, uh,
if they were landmarked as Bob alluded to, um, as landmarks there could be, uh, some
parking requirements waived by the Board of Adjustment...for both the house on
Bloomington and this house on Clinton. Uh, so once again, um....this is in sub-area A in
the Central District Plan, which looks for incentives to maintain, improve, and reinvest in
older housing stock. Um, we stuck to our preservation plan, which says identify historic
resources, significant to our past. Um, preservation plan, the goal 7, establish and
implement historic preservation objectives for the U of I campus and surrounding
neighborhoods, including avoiding negative impacts on individual historic resources and
goal 10, adopt strategies to preserve historic neighborhoods. Urn, so we want...this
house,um, was a result of the same process that we began in response to your,urn,
directive to be proactive, uh, and....as with the other one, we followed objective 3 of our
plan, under goal 1 to, uh, prioritize the houses most threatened...uh, important or
threatened resources, and we believe this,being right next to the University and uh, is
certainly a....under threat. Um, the house clearly meets the criteria required. It's
significant to Iowa City history, it possesses integrity of location, design, setting,
materials, and workmanship. There are very, very(laughs) very few exterior changes
from when it...this was, house was built in 1865 we believe. It's associated with lives of
persons significant to our past, uh, Dr. Cochran and the Sharpless family and the
Dennis's, um, and it embodies a distinctive characteristic of a time period or method for
construction. Again, we're not trying to save every old house. This one rises to that level
of significance. There are perhaps only maybe a dozen at most houses built in the 1860s
that are still in Iowa City. And....(laughs) you know, that's pretty amazing when you
think about it— 1860s is a very important decade in American history, and we would like
to have some houses, particularly that look so much like this one does still, to remind us
of that period. Um, I....this did not, this part that I'm talking about now did not come up
at....during our Preservation Commission or the...or (mumbled) P&Z hearing or of
course the public hearing for the Council, but it...I do believe it's pertinent. So since your
April 17'h public hearing, the ownership has changed of this house. Um, it has been
affordable housing for many years under Mr. Crane. Um, we do not know under the new
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Page 18
owners, um, what is planned. If they intend to keep the house, if they intend to....do
something different with the back. If....we don't know, and we do know however that,
um, from the date....the City Council sets its public hearing, which was April 2nd, there's
a 60-day moratorium on buildings that are being considered for landmarks, in which you
can have no development or demolition. That 60-day moratorium ends on June 2"a
Throgmorton/Great, and...Eleanor, if I'm correct, after that 60-day period ends, assuming the
house has not been designated a landmark, the owner would....could say, put up...you
know request the demolition permit and tear it down in five days.
Dilkes/Yes, and there would...another moratorium or 60-day moratorium would not be
allowable for another year.
Throgmorton/Right. Okay, uh, so again, Ginalie, I wanna ask you why you're recommending
designation despite the fact that the previous owner objected. Do I understand correctly
that the current owner has also filed an objection?
Dilkes/Yes.
Throgmorton/Yeah.
Swaim/Urn, because, again, we're in this for the long haul (laughs) This house has been here
since 1865 and we believe it should be here a lot longer. Uh, we believe that it has
proven that it is a useful house for housing in Iowa City, and that it can continue to be
that. Urn, that the kinds of restrictions that a landmark, uh, would put in place are the
basic ones of, uh, if....if the owner wanted to change something requiring a building
permit, it would come to us and, uh, the various levels of review required based on that.
We, urn, we generally.....if the owner wanted to do something with the addition in the
back, make some changes to that, which would require a building permit. Um, we look at
that somewhat differently than to the historic house. We generally are pretty flexible
with that, understanding it's not contributing to the historic character of....of the main old
house. Uh, so we're doing what we're supposed to be doing and following the criteria
and finding that this is a superb example of 1860 Iowa City.
Throgmorton/Any other questions for Ginalie? Council Members? Okay. Ann.
Freerks/Well as....with the other(clears throat) uh, structure that we talked about this evening,
this also meets the requirements that we see as,uh, Planning and Zoning Commission,
uh, in the Comprehensive Plan. Now, while it is not,uh, called out specifically in the
plan, that is never anything that is required or necessary in order for something to meet
the Comp Plan. Urn, the research that was done outlines the reasons, and um, we support
that, and we support the mission that the Historic Preservation has, uh, put forward here,
based on what the City Council, um, asked them to do bas....in 2015! And, uh, for those
reasons, I mean, I don't know if it's neglect or blind luck,but the fact that this building
still has all of the details and, um...is the way it is is pretty amazing and I think the fact
that it is there, where so many students have access to view it and to see it makes it even
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Page 19
more important, I think....to have them....see part of the community in a way that they
otherwise might not be able to, or in a place that they might not wander into, and so, urn,
to me that...even strengthens the idea and the thought of what needs to occur.
Throgmorton/Okay. Any questions for Ann?
Salih/I don't know this for Ann or for Bob. I can remember there is another extension building
behind this. And that doesn't have nothin' to do with, uh, with this one. They can do
whatever they wanna do, even if this been(mumbled)
Freerks/Well a plan would have to be made and an agreement made, but you know that's what
was done with the old Public Library, is the addition was removed and then, um, a
student housing was built around it, and if you look you can see it's even, you know, in a
curve (laughs) around the....I don't know the proper term for the architecture of it, but
the dome or the (talking in background) apps, thank you, I knew there was someone here
(mumbled) um, so clearly this is something that could be accomplished, I think, and it
could be a win-win situation. Now the fact that the property has changed hands, I think,
um, is reason for worry.
Salih/How large is the building behind...behind this, like how big it is?
Miklo/The existing building?
Salih/Behind this (several talking)
Miklo/It is two stories, urn....I don't know if we have a really great photo of it. Um (talking in
background) this is probably the, uh, the best image. Urn, so it is two stories. I believe,
uh, it contains nine one-bedroom apartments.
Salih/Which one bigger? The front or the back?
Miklo/Excuse me?
Salih/Which one is bigger than the other?
Miklo/Uh, larger? (both talking)
Salih/Larger I mean.
Miklo/I think the one in the...they're roughly the same size, but the one in the back looks
slightly larger.
Freerks/It has nine units and the one in the front has six. I think the idea too that we're talking
about 13% difference in what....currently, what could be made if it were completely
leveled and what could be made if there's some type of compromise and decision making
and creative thinking involved....is an important, uh, thing to know.
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Page 20
Thomas/And, Bob, the....the occupied space scenarios that you were, uh,presenting, neither one
included the parking, right? This was just(both talking)
Miklo/ ...right. Right.
Throgmorton/You have any questions for Ann? Okay, uh....I know I have one residual question
but...do any of the Commissioners on either commission want to add anything to the
discussion we've had so far? Mark!
Signs/I'd like....if I may (laughs) It's for the record so I'm not labeled as a....a hater of historic
properties (laughter) urn, I should point out that I voted...with the exception of the...with
the exception of 319 Bloomington, I voted in favor of protecting all the other properties
that were presented to us, including this one. Um, and the difference...the difference to
me in this one versus the Bloomington, I'll just share...I just wanna share my line of
thought. I'm not right or wrong, I'm just sharing my line of thought. Urn, the difference
is is that this one is a residential property surrounded by residential properties. And...and
again, going back to Bloomington, when we look at....when we look at valuing a
property, we look at what's called highest and best use. Um, and I, you know, and that's
what led me to, uh, to be concerned about, uh, limiting the highest and best use of the
property on Bloomington. Um, I actually....we talked through this on, uh, the Clinton
Street property very significantly and I helped...I tried to help the, uh, the owner, uh,
come up with ways that he could maximize his value on the property, while maintaining,
uh, the historic nature, and that...that did involve demolishing the old building in the back
and building a newer building that was more, uh, more efficient with the space usage.
Urn, and so that....to me, that was a...an alternate scenario that allowed that property
owner to, uh, potentially maintain or increase the value of that property, and maintain the
historic building on the front half of the property. And that was the difference in the two
properties, in my mind.
Throgmorton/Good. Thanks for saying that.
Theobald/I would like to add a little bit into....
Throgmorton/ Sure(both talking)
Theobald/ ......my enthusiastic yes vote on both of these. Urn, along with feeling that it met all
the criteria within the guidelines that we have, the Comp Plan, I'm someone who, um, I
make a living by helping people select trees. And I always go for the tree that they're
probably not going to get the full beauty. They're probably not going to get the full
benefit. It's gonna be another generation. And so that's the perspective I come with
these houses. Um, and I really would hope that they are there for all the generations of
Iowa City. So....1 just have to add that.
Kuenzli/You are taking the long view! (laughter)
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Page 21
Throgmorton/Thank you, Jodie, for saying that.
Boyd/I just look at...at the preservation work that we have as...is part of what we do as a city,
right? We...as a city we come together to share things, roads,parks, urn,protection, all of
those things, and we also have a shared history with that, and...and some of that history is
big and grand, and like the Old Capitol and the realization of the Pentacrest and,urn,
news that makes the world with, uh, you know, Emma Harvat being the first woman
mayor in the country. Urn, but some of the....some of that history is smaller and...and,
uh, and...but no less important, and I think kind of our shared history of the....of the
brewers in the Northside neighbor...or the Northside Marketplace and Clinton Street as
once a...a prominent residential, urn,part of that history, you know, those are still
important stories to tell with the big stories, is...as some of the little ones,urn, and so I,
you know, I see our work...these properties in particular are part of our, urn, the stuff that
we share as coming together as a city, urn, on all the other things, and....and this too, and
I know that there are restrictions of property rights, but we do that all the time with
zoning. You know, we change what people can do and we limit what people can do with
their properties, you know, fences can only be so high and all these things, and that's just
part of what we decide to do as a community together, as a....as a city, and so I just view
these as....as....as two pieces of a...um, you know, of....of sharing that story and...and to
me there's kind of two things to consider, right, which is what we've coming back to all
the time—are these properties worthy of historic designation, and do they fit the objective
of the Comprehensive Plan, and in my mind, it's yes on both...on....on, for both
questions, for both properties, and that seems to me what...what we're all here to try to
do, is to accomplish those things. So....that's what I've got.
Agran/I'd like to....(several talking) I just wanna....I know that, um, this is...these anecdotes
can be time-consuming and whatever, but sometimes I think that they can also allow us to
say something a little bit differently and I just wanted to respond to that phrase `highest
and best use of the property,' and if we look anecdotally, I mean I agree with so much of
what has been said here this evening, urn, but....particularly with the comments right
before me, but urn, that phrase `highest and best use' I find funny to have those things
linked together and I just in terms of looking at this, at the house on, uh,Bloomington,
uh, I would consider my own story, which is that I went to every single one of my, uh,
wife's,uh, prenatal appointments there for all nine months of her pregnancy, and we
chose that doctor, uh, for many reasons, but one of them actually was that it was in that
building, uh, and a building that we could walk to from where we live and everything. So
when you think about like the highest and best use of these historic structures, you know,
I would look....I guess if you look at the Northside, I would look at that building, uh,
which is occupied and I, uh, chose it, well we chose it partially specifically for that
reason, and then look right across the street to the new development that is there that has
been vacant for,uh, most of the year since it was built. Uh, across the street from the
Pagliai building. So, there is, uh.....value, uh, in using these buildings, even though this
might have been residential originally, using it commercially now,uh, does bring great
value to that business in a way that obviously as we look around town, lots of new
buildings maybe don't bring that same value to....to structures. So, it's just my, uh, my
own story about that property. Thanks!
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Throgmorton/ Okay, any Council Members have any other questions? (both talking)
Michaud/ ...empty storefronts in modern buildings, uh, I mean like two years of empty
storefronts on the first floor do not add value to the community. They deplete the sense
of connectedness. Uh, whereas if you had this building maybe there's not a doctor there
10 years from now, but there's a bistro and there's outdoor patio seating. What does it
take to make that ambiance in a new building? It doesn't happen. There's no class in a
new building. They destroy the trees, yada, yada.
Freerks/I do like new buildings sometimes (laughter) but I don't like it when they destroy, uh,
key structures, I think, in our community. So....
Throgmorton/Okay, I would like to ask the Commissioners whether you see....any legitimate
reason why we should or might, we being the Council, should or might treat the
properties differently.
Freerks/I think they meet the requirements the same. I mean they're clearly....outlined. I do not
think they should be...dealt with differently.
Throgmorton/Anyone else?
Theobald/I agree. I agree with Ann(several talking)
Parsons/ ...came to that as a Commission that both these properties met all the criteria.
Freerks/All of'em that we went through, yeah. I think to just select two because someone
doesn't....who currently is a steward of it disagrees, um....wouldn't be the wisest
decision to make....to clearly, to pull those aside and not designate them for that one
reason.
Throgmorton/Okay.
Freerks/Yeah.
Throgmorton/Anybody else wanna chime in? You don't have to (laughter)
Signs/I....I wanted to touch on a comment you made, and I'm not....I guess I'm playing devil's
advocate at this point. Um, while we do have....while we do, uh, create many regulations
and zoning and code and criteria for structures, it's my understanding for the most part
that anything that's existing is typically grandfathered in. And I....and I....and I, in my
mind,kind of equate the same thing. Um,the fact that....that fact that it, uh, the fact that
we have,um, that there may be new ideas of the way things should be done,um, has not,
um, limited us in the past from allowing those things that don't meet that, uh, criteria, to
be, uh,exempt from those kind of changes. So....I.....I don't know, I just....felt the need
to....
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Page 23
Miklo/Just to be clear, the commercial use would still be grandfathered in. The historic
preservation designation doesn't affect the use of the property.
Parsons/Right. Right, yeah.
Boyd/And there's no....there's no need to change what's there now, right? They're
grandfathered in as they are.
Freerks/Correct.
Dilkes/Yeah, I'm sorry, that...that concept really doesn't apply here and....and if it did, there's
nothing that has to change about these properties with a designation...at,based on what
they currently are.
Signs/I wasn't speci....I wasn't talking specifically about these properties. More about the
concept of creating new laws and....and new codes, and how that is applied over time.
Miklo/We....we someto....sometimes have downzoned properties or changed the zoning, and
urn, once it's downzoned you couldn't add, um, square footage or....so it's, yeah, I'm not
sure it's (mumbled)
Signs/I'll shut up now! (laughter)
Salih/When you....designate something as historic, what benefit the owner will get?
Freerks/That's a great question!
Swaim/ Well, um....it's protected (laughs) This house is....is, uh, going to stay. It's...if there
are, uh, changes that the applicant would like, uh, this person, the...the owner would have
access to really fine, urn, free advice on....and direction, on how the....how to choose the
best windows, if the owner decided to replace the windows; design information and
review and advice. Um, as we said earlier,the waiving of parking requirements could...
could happen, urn, so that....because what we're trying to do is not just to preserve these
houses,but to continue the use of them. We don't want them to sit empty. We want
them to continue to be a vibrant part of the community that people use. Um....
Boyd/There's also state and local tax credits.....
Swaim/Yes!
Boyd/...available for....for owners of historic properties. (several talking)
Kuenzli/The owner has been getting an income from this property, and that will continue with
the landmark designation. It's not being penalized in that sense in any way.
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Swaim/And it would also mean this, uh, the owner, we have a new preservation fund in Iowa
City, which, urn, depending on whether it's ow...whether it's owner-occupied or an
income-producing, there's, uh, money available, either as a grant or as a low-income...
low-interest loan, urn, and as....besides the state and federal tax credits.
Salih/And if there is any restriction beside don't demolition for like...ever (mumbled)
Swaim/Um, the res....uh, in terms of any exterior changes, but again, that can be a very
streamlined process, and I think if you look at the history of all the applications that have
come to us for exterior changes, you will find that we have denied, uh, shouldn't give a
number but I would be surprised if it's more than 4%, and that's a couple of decades
worth. And it....that's because we can work with the applicant and come up with a
solution that works for the applicant and that works for the longevity of the house.
Freerks/Also the interior is nothing...nothing on the interior is ever looked at by the Commission
or is, urn, like with the old Public Library, I mean that was really, I think, for the most
part, completely changed on the interior. You just don't notice it from the exterior.
Salih/(mumbled)
Throgmorton/There are certain circumstances under which a....an historic landmark could be
demolished, right? What are those circumstances?
Swaim/If, yes, if...uh....um, if a....so for instance, if a tornado hit the house, or a fire hit the
house, as these things do happen. If the house is, uh,judged to be totally irreparable. It
cannot be fixed. Then...then, uh....the applicant could receive a demolition permit, with
one....other caveat. The applicant would need to, urn, give us plans for what she would
like to build in place.
Miklo/Actually, Ginalie, that doesn't apply (both talking)
Swaim/ ...for a landmark (both talking)
Miklo/ ...historic districts (both talking) once the building is gone then there's no need for the
review (both talking)
Swaim/Okay, forget that (laughter)
Freerks/Tornado, fire, really bad, yes (laughter and several talking)
Mims/Just to clarif...I'm sorry! If I could just piggyback on that,just to clarify, you're saying it
has to be totally destroyed. So if it's 80% (both talking)
Swaim/No, not totally destroyed.
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Mims/Who....who determines that level of destruction and whether or not it can be, has to be
replaced, repaired (both talking)
Miklo/ ....in the past the building official has done it based on structural defects.
Michaud/Basically though, um, we....these commissions are...are kind of part of our structure,
our governmental structure, and they've been evolved over decades,just like the
Constitution nationally and the House of Representatives and State Senate. These are
part of the agreed upon structures. Planning and Zoning is extremely important, and
people have valued historic preservation too nationally. So...that's kind of a given. The
owner's, uh, problem is...is to be weighed, absolutely.
Throgmorton/Okay, I think we've reached the end, unless one of our Council Members needs to,
wants to say something. Thank you so much....for your advice, for the information you
provided. It's been very, very helpful. Thank you.
Freerks/Thank you very much! (several talking)
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