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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2021-07-27 Transcription Page I Council Present: Bergus, Mims, Salih*,Teague, Taylor,Thomas, Weiner* Staff Present: Fruin, Kilburg, Goers, Fruehling, Sitzman, Russett, Liston, Seydell Johnson,Nagle-Gamm, Hightshoe, Ford, Havel, Sovers, Bockenstedt Others Present: Miglin (UISG) *participating electronically Overview and discussion of City planning documents related to growth management: Teague: We're going to start with an overview and discussion of City planning documents related to growth management. Welcome! Russett: Good afternoon, Mayor, Council. Anne Russett, she/her, uh, with Neighborhood and Development Services. Um...I have a brief presentation for you all tonight. Um, I'd like to go over the comprehensive plan, how the comprehensive plan is implemented, discuss the land development process at a high level, go over some recent zoning code and policy changes that have been made to implement the comprehensive plan, and then some potential changes moving forward at the end (mumbled) Council will have an opportunity to discuss. So starting with the comprehensive plan, the comprehensive plan is the guiding policy document for growth and development in the City of Iowa City. It includes a vision, goals, and strategies. It covers many different policy areas, including housing, transportation, land use, economic development. It includes specific conditions and criteria that need to be reviewed for proposed annexations, and it also includes a future land use map. And this is the future land use map here. It identifies the general intended land uses for land within the city. These land use categories are often separated by single-family, urn, and multi-family, from commercial and industrial. The future land use map also identifies the growth boundary, which is shown here with the...if you can see it...you can't see my cursor,but it's the blue dashed line at the edge of this map. Um, it does include areas which are outside of the corporate limits of the city, that will likely be annexed and become part of the city in the future. And the growth boundary is one tool that we have for managing growth. It identifies, again, areas that could be incorporated into the city. The other tool that we have for growth management are policies that encourage growth and higher intensity land uses in the core of the city, and this is especially true in our Riverfront Crossings District. The comprehensive plan was adopted in 2013. It was an update to the 1997 comprehensive plan, and when that update occurred, many community values were the same, but there were...but it was updated to address new challenges, such as the climate crisis, the 2008 flood, as well as the Great Recession, and as is the case with any comprehensive planning process, it requires a This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council work session of July 27, 2021. Page 2 robust and inclusive community engagement process. Besides the 2013 comprehensive plan, there are other components. Urn, there are eight district plans, the historic preservation plan, and the fringe area agreement that we have with Johnson County. Here's a map of the City's planning districts. The City created the planning districts with the adoption of the 1997 comprehensive plan, which broke the City up into 10 planning districts. The idea was that after the adoption of the comprehensive plan, the City would embark on more specific and more detailed district plans, and since that time the City has adopted eight district plans. The first one was completed for the South District in 1996, and that district plan was recently updated in 2015. So that...at the time, the South District plan was the oldest district plan, and it was facing growth pressures with the extension of McCollister Boulevard and the new Alexander Elementary School. So those issues were addressed in the 2015 update to the South District plan. Each district plan also includes a future land use map, which outlines the general intended land uses for the district. They also sometimes show a conceptual street network, and these plans are visions and conceptual in nature. Uh, the street networks are not engineered designs. Here's the future land use map for the North District. (mumbled) 80 is at the top of the screen. And if you remember, this comprehensive plan, this district plan, was amended for the Forest View project...a few years ago. Um, and this is the updated future land use map for that project. You can see the large area in red was envisioned to be commercial, and due to COVID-19 and other changing market conditions, the commercial originally planned for this area, which included hotels, may not end up working out. There have also been amendments to the text of the comprehensive plan to reflect ongoing policy issues. A recent one was related to affordable housing, and in 2018, the plan was amended to require affordable housing at the time of annexation. The image that you see at the right is the final plat for the Community View, part one, um, subdivision. That was an annexation near Scott Boulevard and American Legion Road, and this was the first development project that, um, had to abide by the affordable housing annexation policy. And just to refresh your memories, that policy requires that annexation of residential land has to include affordable units, either through on-site development of those units or a fee in lieu. The affordable units have to equal 10% of the total units of the project and the affordability term is for 20 years. The...the other component that I wanted to talk about rela...that's a component of the comprehensive plan is the City/County Fringe Area Agreement. This guides development within the City's fringe area, and this is land outside of the corporate limits of the city up to two miles, and like the future land use map of the comprehensive plan, it identifies a growth area...or growth boundary for future annexation, and also includes policies that guide our review of rezonings in subdivisions. This is the fringe area map. You can see the growth boundary or the growth areas identified, growth areas that are in the growth boundary and then the outside growth areas. In summary, the comprehensive plan sets the community's vision for growth and development. It is a policy document that is visionary. It's not regulatory, and it is constantly updated to deal with changing issues and needs. The City has tools This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council work session of July 27, 2021. Page 3 that help to implement the vision of the comprehensive plan, and these include the zoning code, the zoning map, and the subdivision code. The zoning code regulates land uses. There's...it requires additional standards related to height, setback, open space. The zoning map applies specific zones to property within the city and rezonings are where changes to that map are made. And then the subdivision code regulates the division into lots, division of land into lots for development. And zoning actually predates comprehensive planning in Iowa City and in most of the United States. Urn, the zoning ordinance here wasn't adopted until...was adopted in 1925, but our first comprehensive plan wasn't adopted until 1961. Next I'd like to go through the land development process and here's an example of a typical next steps slide that Danielle would present to you with a rezoning or subdivision application, so this slide might include, you know, the next step being a comprehensive plan amendment, then a rezoning, then the platting or the subdivision of the land. There's typically a preliminary plat and then a final plat. And then after that it's administrative reviews by staff, um, for the site plan and building permits. This, uh, slide here shows...the....the land development process again at a very high level, from annexation, bringing land into the city; rezoning, changing the land use designation or the zoning designation of a property; and then subdividing that land through the preliminary platting process and then the final platting process. I just wanted to take a project from start to finish, urn, a more recent project that went through all of these steps recently. If you remember, some of you might have been here in 2017 when there was about 8.5 acres of land that was annexed, uh, on Rochester Avenue, east of Scott Boulevard. Um, this was annexed and then rezoned to an interim zoning designation in 2017. And then in 2018, they came back for another rezoning. So they rezoned a portion of that land to multi-family residential and a portion to single-family residential. After the rezoning they came back with a preliminary plat application that showed the proposed lots and outlots, uh, the extension of a road or the creation of a new road called Nex Avenue, and then they went through the final platting process, which is the...which records these lots and is an official record of these lots. After 2019, um, they came in with a site plan and building plans that were reviewed by staff, and in 2020 the construction was completed and you may have seen this project. Um, it's a three-story, 36-unit affordable housing project. There's parking in the back and a children's play area on site, and again, it's just adjacent to Olde Towne Village. So you can see from beginning to end it's a several year process. Moving on from the land development process, I wanted to outline some changes that have been made to City codes and policies, um, in order to help achieve the vision of the comprehensive plan. Starting back in 2005,when the City went...underwent an entire zoning code rewrite, and some of the changes that came out of that code rewrite were, um, allowing duplexes only on corner lots in single-family zones, allowing accessory dwelling units or granny flats or accessory apartments, and also multi-family site development standards were incorporated into that code. In 2007, the City adopted a complete streets policy. The vision of this policy is to ensure that all users of the transportation system can safely and conveniently get around This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council work session of July 27, 2021. Page 4 the city. This includes motorists, pedestrians, children, persons with disabilities, bicyclists, freight, uh...transit riders, etc. To help implement the vision of the complete streets policy, the City made some amendments to the subdivision code in 2008. This included only allowing cul-de-sacs where it could be demonstrated that a through street could not be provided and encouraging shorter block lengths. In 2013, the Downtown and Riverfront Crossings master plan was adopted. Shortly thereafter, the form based code for Riverfront Crossings was adopted and again, this...this code is part of the City's growth management strategy, which incentivizes redevelopment through increased development potential in areas that are close to jobs, close to transit, which helps to address some of the City's climate concerns. Since the Riverfront Crossings code was adopted in 2015, there have been several amendments. The Orchard District was created, and that's a new zoning designation for an area near Benton and Riverside, on the west side of the river. The East Side Mixed-Use District was created, which resulted in the development of the apartments on Van Buren and College. The affordable housing requirement was incorporated after the code was originally adopted, and there was also a code amendment that allowed some properties that are outside of Riverfront Crossings that are zoned CB-5 to be subject to the Riverfront Crossings standards, and here's just a couple examples of those projects that...were completed because of those code amendments. This is the Whistler Apartments on Iowa Avenue, which isn't a CB-5 zone but was subject to the Riverfront Crossings standards, and then the apartments on Van Buren and College, which was in the East Side Mixed-Use District. In 2020, staff proposed two code amendments. One was the commercial re-use ordinance, which was aimed at addressing small-scale commercial areas and this amendment provided flexibility for underutilized commercial parcels and the amendment allowed Press Coffee at 1120 N. Dodge Street to completely transform an underutilized site that sat vacant for many years. So this is, on the left, a before and after picture of Press Coffee. Moving on from recent code changes, I'd like to touch on some ongoing issues, and how land use and zoning can help be part of the solution. Many of our goals have not changed over the years, goals related to addressing climate change, creating an equitable and just city, and ensuring housing for all remain top priorities. But how we work towards those goals may change over time. In terms of equity, zoning has historically been used to segregate communities. Single-family zoning and large minimum lot sizes have resulted in exclusion. Currently 81% of the land in Iowa City zoned for residential is zoned single- family. In terms of climate action, the City has goals to achieve—net zero carbon emissions by 2050 and we want to reduce auto dependence by creating more walkable and compact neighborhoods. I wanted to share some maps that speak to the issues with equity and the history of exclusionary practices in...in land use and zoning. Um, many of you might be familiar with the Mapping Segregation Project in Iowa and this map here shows a map of persons of color...households with persons of color in Iowa City. This is from 1921. And then this is the map from 1947; the yellow areas here are land that had restrictive covenants in place that excluded people of color, so you can see a portion of This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council work session of July 27, 2021. Page 5 this is in University Heights, urn, the area...to the east of the river there is the Longfellow area on Summit Street. This map is a recent map that was created by researchers at the University of Virginia, using 2010 Census data. It's a racial dot map. So one dot equals one person, and the map is of the entire country, but this shows just Iowa City. You can see the blue is white people, and you can see that most of our community is made up of, urn, white people. Um, but there are areas that have, um, the red areas are...are Asian residents. The green areas are black residents, and then the orange areas are Latino residents, and you can see that these are concentrated in certain areas of the community. So what are we doing now, and what can we do moving forward. Currently, the current projects that we're working on is we're updating the fringe area agreement with the County and working closely with the Cou...Johnson County planners. We're working on the South District form based code, which I'll touch on more on the next slide. We're working to update the Southwest District plan because there's a sewer extension that's planned for that area that will lead to growth, and we hope to apply form based standards to that area of the city. And in terms of future planning efforts, we want to focus on areas where urban development is expected,based on infrastructure that's planned. And this includes areas around, um...Alexander, or sorry, Hoover Elementary School and also the Herbert Hoover and 80 interchange. In terms of the South District form based code, we are moving forward a proposal to adopt this code for a 900-area....acre area of undeveloped land in the South District. This code allows a wider variety of housing types to help improve housing choices and create a range of price points. It requires a mix of building types by the block, so you can't...can't build all single-family. And it also includes regulatory incentives for affordable housing. One of the goals of the project is to apply it to other greenfield sites, like the Carson Farms area. In order to apply it to other greenfield sites, staff would need to work on updating the comprehensive plan, which we are currently doing for the Southwest District and applying new land use designations that allow a diversity of housing types, including missing middle housing. (mumbled) also needs to show a highly interconnected street network, and with these new plans in place, the proposed form based zoning designations could be applied. Staff has also evaluated what other code changes could be done now. In evaluating these changes, we looked at time frame, staffing capacity, and potential impacts. Three options that we've outlined on this screen are amendments that would not take too long to implement. They also might not have the greatest impact. These include reexamining our duplex standards for single-family zones. As I mentioned before, duplexes are only allowed on corner lots in single-family districts. We could look at decreasing minimum lot sizes for single-family zones and examine parking regulations. A project that may have a greater impact but also take a significant amount of time and staff resources would be an overhaul of the comprehensive plan. As part of that process, we would examine existing land use designations and how they help or hinder achieving our goals related to equity and sustainability. A comp plan process would also need to be followed by code amendments, and um, it goes without saying that this would require a robust and This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council work session of July 27, 2021. Page 6 inclusive outreach pro...program. So that concludes my presentation. Urn, thank you for your time. Teague: Thank you! All right, Council discussion? Mims: Well I think it's really helpful for people to see, a refresher for us, but also for the general public see kind of that process that we go through in developing from raw land, whether it's in the city or not, to getting to the point of the final plats, and some of the things that we've done, you know, in the past and some of the changes that, um, have been made and...and have been made in code and that Council has approved in terms of trying to improve some of those things. So I think it's a good reminder. Thomas: I...I've been impressed with the, um....I'm....I'm really interested in projects that really strongly convey what it is we're trying to accomplish and, uh, in the presentation was that,um, renovation of that commercial property on north Dodge, which had been just sitting there vacant for....I'm not sure how many years. It was vacant when I got here, um, and it has really been transformed, and I think part of that has to do with the code changes. It also has to do with the developer, who I think is interested in working on... distinct projects, um, not run of the mill projects. Uh,but I think it's a great pilot project in the sense it can show what can happen if you line the, you know, the codes up so that it promotes the vision and, um...incentivize that movement in that direction. Um, I think the same thing might apply to, you know, some of these opportunities we're looking at, you know, the duplex standards, reducing minimum lot size, and so forth, uh, off-street parking requirements. I'm concerned where those may....where the opportunities for those types of changes may be, uh, and I think we need to really be care...careful in understanding what the impacts may be, uh, and again, perhaps pilot the concept, uh, test it on a more limited basis before sort of unleashing the power of it over a large area. Urn, it also might help if we do it well, um, incentivize that direction. If it's done well, people then, I think, understand why it's a valuable change. Um...but it, you know, there's a risk involved with these changes, particularly in certain areas where it may incentivize...you know, the wrong thing, shall we say. Uh, not the type of changes to the occupancy, the demographic, um, that we're envisioning. So I think, you know, sort of pilot tested on a smaller scale as a strategy moving forward is just something I would suggest. Teague: (mumbled, speaking away from mic) remind everyone that we do have our two Councilors on the phone, so just chime in as well. Weiner: This is Janice Weiner. I...I really, uh, would like to echo what Councilor Thomas just said. Uh, I...I really appreciate the presentation. I think the...the....the, what you referred to with respect to the...the duplexes and smaller lot sizes is....is a piece that's left over from the previous affordable housing plan. Uh, and...I also am really looking forward to This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council work session of July 27, 2021. Page 7 seeing the South District form based code because I think that is the real game changer, because if it's...if we do that well and it really represents what...the future that we're looking for, it can be a really excellent template for...for growth going forward. Thomas:Another point I might make would be, uh...with regard to the form based code application, you know, developing....we developed it for the South District and there's an opportunity where we can then kind of export that and...and apply it in other parts of the city. I think another important aspect of...using the form based code, which is a...in my mind the...the goals of the form based code are to, you know, improve the built environment, but at the same time improve walkability, uh, increased integration of incomes so that we don't have that segregation that Anne was talking about, and that may...that usually, if it's going to be done well, includes the...the road infrastructure. You know, it's not simply the buildings, and I think there too the South District, you know, the one road that we've seen implemented was, uh, McCollister and, you know, from what I'm hearing, people are really happy with that road, and that...that in a sense was part of the vision, you know, making sure that the, uh, the speeds on that street are kept at a lower speed than one might expect, uh, the block sizes that it would generate are all kind of integrated into that street, uh, so when we...consider exporting the building component of the form based code, I think at the same time we need to look carefully with...to, um, you know, how the road infrastructure, the street infrastructure, is laid out. Teague: I guess for myself, um, some of the opportunities that we have that are more short-term that was mentioned, um, re-examining the duplexes, you know, the lot sizes, as you mentioned, um, and the parking regs, I do think that could lend some more information to Council and to the public as to what those could be and how they could impact. I...I, what I do know, and I want to make a point, um, is that...at least for me, I understand the goal of our Council is to have this discussion, so that we can really zone in on what the community needs are, as well as have something that is tangible, um, and...and predictable for everyone in our community. Not only do we have, urn, developers, but we have staff, Council, and most important our residents. I think it's very important that when, you know, they go to a document that it does represent, urn, kind of...the steps that Council would do, and I know that has not often been the case and so...I do believe that, um, the South District form based code, we're going to be looking at that in the near future. Super excited to see how that has played itself out. It has to go through, uh, P&Z first and then it'll come to us. At that point, you know, how do we duplicate this throughout our community, um, should that be, uh, the case that we want to, you know, have this be the, urn, kind of the...the lay of the land for most of the city. Um...I do believe that...there's...there is wisdom in what Councilor Thomas just mentioned as far as doing a little bit at a time, um, than doing it all and then finding out that that doesn't work. I...although, flip side, we are in a position where we know the community and everyone that I just mentioned is really calling out for more predictability, and so with This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council work session of July 27, 2021. Page 8 that, you know, looking at, you know, that...the overall comp plan, you know, urn... how...I'm more interested to find out what would be the timeline that Council think, urn, we could really zone in and...really gamer what we're looking for, um, for the community, and um...you know, if it's going to be, urn, kind of led by staff. I...I think we need to have that conversation. Urn, there's also, you know, other cities that have city planners that kind of come in and look at the whole community and, urn, or is it going to be contracted out, cause this is not a small undertaking when we're talking about the entire city of Iowa City. Urn, we just saw all the, you know, different zones and, urn, laid out there. The annexation, urn, of...of properties coming into the city, I think that we have great opportunity as a city. This is a hot spot. Many people want to live in our community and I think that we, urn, should look at how can we optimize, urn, allowing people to come where they want to be, as well as having all of our values incorporated into what we develop, and so, uh, one of the hopes that I have before we're done today is if Council can have some discussion on what this looks like, uh, from a time, urn...on some type of a timeline and...you know, who are we thinking can do and lead this process, and of course would welcome City staff to chime in on that as well. Fruin: You know if I could, urn,just jump in real quick, Mayor. The, um...plan that we have right now that Anne briefly touched on at the end there is certainly to...to take the form based code for the South District to the finish line and...and the P&Z has had a couple of meetings, um, really dissecting that code, asking questions, and staff is currently following up with them, but I do expect that that'll end up, uh, at your table here in the next, uh, you know, 30 to 60 days probably. It just depends on when Planning and Zoning Commission feels comfortable forwarding that on. That's clearly going to, uh, set the stage for growth, uh, not only in incorporated, uh, but unincorporated areas in the South District. Any...any area that is not developed would, um, presumably, urn, after... after that code's adopted, fall subject to that standard. Urn, we're already working on that Southwest District plan. So that's the Carson area that the Council talked about, um...uh, you know, four or five months ago. Urn...uh, we know that is going to be a significant area of growth for the city and...and the, uh, urban planning team, uh, has been working for the last several months to update that comprehensive plan, that district plan, if you will. Uh, so that'll have to be brought through that process as will...as...as well, once we finish that up. So those two things are...are already in progress, and then, uh, what Anne signaled is next for us in terms of those district plan updates is really looking at the east and northeast sides of town, certainly, urn, taking a, uh, look up at that, urn, eastern corridor along Herbert Hoover Highway where we've already seen the Churchill Subdivision go and we know that there's additional development pressure up there, urn, but also, you know, I think it was 2011 that we last updated the plan around, urn, the, um....uh, new Hoover Elementary School, and so while we feel pretty good, that's pretty recent in terms of a comp plan update, urn, we'll have to look at how to carry that form based coding concept, urn, into that area,because that was not contemplated in 2011. So This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council work session of July 27, 2021. Page 9 there's quite a bit of that work underway. I think that that direction from Council would be helpful is, you know, when it comes to more specific code, uh, amendments, like the duplex standards. How comfortable are you, urn, going forward? Is this going to be a small pilot project that you want us to pursue? Um, or do you want us to push forward and, um, do a more comprehensive type of amendment that would expand land uses, and as Councilman Thomas, uh, mentioned, you can't just think of this in terms of what new development looks like, because this is going to apply to a....a land use classification that includes current developed areas. So you can imagine in some of the, uh, areas closer in to our core, um, where there might be some infill projects that neighbors may not like and, you know, specifically a single-family home being torn down for a duplex. Urn, that would be enabled by this, and we've all probably had our...our share of....have our share of memories of those controversial infill projects. We just have to be cautious, urn, while we...we have a sense of urgency, we also have to, uh, be cautious that we're, again, not going to undo anything that we've been working towards, urn, in terms of stabilizing some of those, urn, closer-in neighborhoods too. Thomas: Yeah, I...I certainly would agree with Geoff there that, urn, and that's in a sense (mumbled) indirectly earlier speaking about that, urn, the concern I would have in certain areas where we....we have historic, uh, tendency for any new development to...in the core neighborhoods, to...be basically adding, uh, supply for the student housing. And, you know, our...our comprehensive plan has, urn, outlined how we, you know, how we should be addressing that imbalance, and uh, it's been a really challenging issue. Urn, you know, I do think I...I think there may be ways we can try to, um...integrate our desire for affordable housing with addressing how to better achieve that balance. Um, we...we haven't talked about economic incentives, but I think...it may be that, you know, economic incentives on a small scale may be able to tip the balance, um...so I....I'm hoping, again, I...I think we need to try to think through, at least in the infill in the core, urn, think these things through, see what kind of strategy we can employ. Uh...in areas say around Hoover, you know, I think that idea of allowing, um...higher densities may not be as controversial or as problematic. You know, the South District has done that. Um, I haven't seen the South District plan in a while,but my...my impression is is that it will include, urn, a range of densities for the single-fa....or the residential development. Um...one other thing I wanted to mention, I don't know if staff is thinking about revising the subdivision standards, but you know, was mentioning road design. Urn...it might be something worth considering. We often go into our subdivisions after they're constructed and end up having to implement traffic calming measures. So it's...that suggests to me that there may be, uh, ways we could improve walkability in the subdivision standards so we...we again try to integrate, uh, into the design what we want those speeds to be, because we certainly have seen...you know, numerous incidents where we've had to come in and..and, urn, you know, in my mind try to apply a band-aid to address the speeds that This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council work session of July 27, 2021. Page 10 we're experiencing. So if we can get ahead of that, uh, I think that would be to our advantage. Teague: I think you do mention some of the complexities of this, but I did want to make a point, urn, that while we are, you know, looking at all of this, I do believe that we want to use some wisdom and move forward with caution, but...I do believe that...there is still that sense of urgency that we should feel. Thomas: Yeah, I agree, and I think it's just a matter of what...what the context is... Teague: Uh huh. Thomas: ...and urn, you know, where (laughs) I'm...I'm kind of being reminded of the prairie restoration. There were a number of projects where it seemed, 'Yep, let's do it; I don't see any resistance or friction that it may generate,' and then in other areas,you know, we did see that, um, a little bit more community engagement was necessary. So I think it may be the same thing,just trying to assess where, um, we can anticipate there's going to be potential impacts and where we may not have that issue. Taylor: I appreciate your comment about moving as quick as we can. I'm....the old saying `haste makes waste'but I still think that, uh, we can be cautious, yet move forward as quickly as we can, because the South District's been waiting for a long time. They've been in need of...of us to really take a good look at them for a long time, and I think the sooner we can get to it and get...get started on things the better. Bergus: I think with this...this discussion I'm wondering about, urn, what we're moving with urgency towards, urn, and maybe if we can kind of try and articulate that a little bit better, um, because I...I think our...the timeline that Anne laid out was the most helpful for me, to kind of see how we've progressed over decades of...kind of addressing different issues, and as I think urban planning has changed and the way that we look at, you know, trying to extrapolate community values into the built environment has changed over time, and so what are, you know, what are we urgently trying to achieve or fix, um...that our current system really doesn't allow for. I'm not...I'm not sure, and I don't know that all of you have answers to that, but I think for myself the...going through the district plans and having those updated is...makes a lot of sense, um, and kind of phasing it that way, instead of trying to undertake an entire comp plan review all at one time, given the intensity of that and that we know there's a lot of other...you know (laughs) normal work that has to be undertaken throughout that process. Um, the South District comp plan update...or the district plan for the South District and that process, which Anne reminded me was completed in 2015, I think. Um...was a really fantastic process. There were a number of community meetings. I mean I remember attending and the planners were This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council work session of July 27, 2021. Page 11 there, you know, with different, urn, little pieces of paper to try and show what different kinds of concepts and layouts could be, you know, and what...what do you imagine for what these different areas would be like, and that plan now is what has really helped emphasize, for example, all the green space that we have and the trail system that we have and the magnificence of the parks that we have, urn, and so I think that process seemed really good, and I don't know that that process needs to be changed, in my opinion. Teague: Since I was the one that talked about the urgency, I would just bring a little clarity. Uh, predictability is probably the number one word that I would use, urn, and I did mention, you know, this is really predictable for residents most importantly, but to staff, Council, um, as well as to the developers, and...and some of that is...it's all built...it's all built in there, and so some of the, um, height bonuses, for instances, it would all be inclusive. It...as well as if you, these are the things you can do. Maybe it's single-family, maybe it's a little commercial here and there, or it...so it would be more comprehensive and laying out what are the opportunities that,um...can happen at that space, and so it's more predictable, and then I also believe it's our values, um, because, you know, we're a very different community than we were a few years ago. We have our climate action goals that we are trying to aggressively achieve, and we also have affordability needs that we, um, have made a commitment to, and I believe that the City of Iowa City is committed to reaching, um, you know, more equitable opportunities for people to live throughout the community and so those are the things when I mentioned urgency, um, would be at, you know, some of the things at the forefront. Bergus:Yeah, and it seems to me the form based code will help a lot with...with that. I think that's a lot of the intention in terms of you have this like menu (laughs) right of things that you know if you can sort of pick and choose from that, it should be allowed,but I...I do also want to challenge us a little bit—in my short experience on Council, I see the unpredictability coming from the seven of us, more than from our documents or our code...and I don't know how you solve for that (laughs) Teague: Well some of our(several talking) I would just mention, some of our codes don't have all of our current values in them. Bergus: Okay. Mims: Yeah, and I think when we look at, you know, kind of our priorities and sense of urgency here, I think, you know, the three that staff mentioned, kind of that they're working on now I think the form based code, urn, as you just said, Laura, is really important, cause that's going to inform a lot of green space development that, you know, will happen as we annex, you know, land into the city, and so I think it's really important to get that one This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council work session of July 27, 2021. Page 12 done for the South District, urn, and as....as City Manager said, you know, once we get that done, hopefully we're going to be able to kind of be able to pick that up and use it in different places. Maybe it will need some modification, um, in different areas, but we'll have a lot of that framework already done that we'll be able to use that will hopefully give us, uh, that diversity of housing type, price points, you know, everything that we've talked about there. And I think with the next two that they talked about, the Southwest District plan and then kind of the east and northeast,just make a lot of sense because that's...that's where we have the greatest possibility of annexation coming in the near future, and so to make sure that that land is really being developed the way we want it to be developed, um, so getting on those, and then I think, you know, the challenge is, what other updates do we need for...for those parts of the city that are already developed. Urn, you know, as the mention...as we mentioned, you know, if there's certain places you don't want somebody just to be able to tear down a house and put in a duplex or a triplex or things like that. So how do..how do you make those switches, but to me the...the, probably the most urgency is in those areas of the city where we have the opportunity or might be facing requests for annexation, um, sooner rather than later. Um, I think we....I think we saw that with...with Carson Farms and why...and potentially why the Council did not approve that. Um...and frankly I would like us to revisit that sooner rather than later. Um...because I think the other opportunities for that land being developed outside of the city are not good, would not be a good result for the city. So I...I think as we look at....and then, you know, the problem is staff is always busy, and ideally we would go back through these district plans kind of on a regular time frame, um, so that....when I looked at some of the dates on these, I think one of them was 1999 was the last time it was redone, and that's definitely too long. I mean things change. The other piece of it I think that is challenging. Bruce, you talked about predictability, and um, you know,Anne used the word when she was talking that a lot of these plans are conceptual. They are giving an idea of what it is we want and kind of the overarching, uh, results out of that, and when you do that, there are certain elements that are shown in there that people then believe are hard and fast—this is the way it is supposed to be—and don't...realize that, no, those are ideas and it lays out the...kind of the context, and I think that's one reason we've seen so much pushback, um, on the rezoning we'll talk about later tonight, in terms of, urn, cul-de-sacs versus through streets. And so I think, you know, really understanding what those district plans mean and how they're to be utilized is...is a challenge and is important. Thomas: One...one thing I might add on the...the question of urgency is that, uh, you know, in looking at trying to take the form based code concept that we're developing or have developed in the South District and applying it elsewhere, um...I...I, it may be useful, uh, as we move forward say in applying it to Carson Farms, uh, to have...uh,kind of an as- needed consultant onboard who has that...those skills of....of assisting with the development of what I would...I would really like to call a 'town plan,'you know, the... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council work session of July 27, 2021. Page 13 the work of an architect is just design, typically a...a particular building. Uh, developing Carson Farms is developing, uh, if it's successful, uh, a small town. And that's a different skill, and...and so it seems to me it might be useful, again, partly because of these timeline issues. Uh, I...I do think if we're going to develop, if we're feeling this urgency to develop, uh, it's critical that, you know, the values that we've been talking about of inclusion, equity, energy conservation, uh...creating neighborhoods that have that social dimension, um, that we get it right, that it's not just another subdivision but actually...the creation of a place that...that one feels some sense of identity with, and...and that may require, at least not necessarily as a permanent member of the team, but the ability to consult with a...a town planner, you know, as the need arises. Bergus: I think that brings up a interesting point that we sort of struggle with when various projects come up, which is the....I mean we'll just take Carson Farms, that's what we're talking about. It's...it's, the developer will come forward with a proposal and we can't...there's only a certain level we can dictate, right? Like there's a certain degree to which...really what we have to do is have our, in this case hopefully, form based code or at least the path on the way so that everyone can understand predictably, you know, where it's...where it's headed. Um...but we can't say our town planner's going to tell you what exactly will be built here...if we're not the property owner, and I...and I think we just need to...you know, sort of...acknowledge that or think about what that means if...if we feel like we're going to be wanting to impose a level of specificity that...our regulatory documents might not allow. Thomas:Yeah, I...I....I think that's important. I do, um, think so what's the receptivity of the land holder, and um, I...you know, personally think, you know, Jesse Allen is someone, first of all we have a fairly consolidated piece of land there... Bergus: Uh huh. Thomas: ...which I think would be helpful. So we don't need to talk to a dozen property owners, we can talk to one, and um...you know, in my experience, in this instance,uh, Jesse's interested in new ideas,just like the developer of the Press Cafe. Bergus: Uh huh. Thomas: Um, so...so I think, I mean, in the end I think we're trying to improve the development. So I would hope that...and I understand that it's a different approach. So there may be, from a...you know,business model (mumbled) concern about that. Um, and that's maybe, again, where the South District comes in. If we see the South District, um, is successful in the same way that over time the Peninsula District was successful, the This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council work session of July 27, 2021. Page 14 concept begins to promote itself. Um, but yeah, I think there's some opportunity with Carson in part because it's just one major property owner. Bergus:And I think, you know, in terms of what people hope or intend to do with their property, that's one that we know they want to be in the city. The South District is a number of property owners. If we're going to have this form based code and we don't know that that means they're going to come in and, you know (both talking) Thomas: No we don't (both talking) hopefully the proof will be with the...with those that decide to do it, that...that it's successful and, um...others will want to join in. Teague: I don't know if there's any comments from anyone on the phone. Weiner: This is Janice Weiner. I just sort of, you were asking for priorities and, uh, and what I've essentially heard, at least what I think I've heard, is something that I would really support, which is looking...finishing this form based code for the South District, using that as a...as a template to the degree that we can, um, looking secondarily at some measures that we could take in the already built areas that...that will improve chances for affordable housing without, um, without creating results that we don't want, sort of by looking at it maybe perhaps as pilot projects or looking at what other communities have done to avoid, um, some...some...to avoid some of the problems we don't want to run into, uh, including the...the ideas that Councilor Thomas raised about making sure that the...what...the streets are a piece of this and then, um...I'm not sure if there is...and I didn't hear from Anne....Anne Russett, is there...if we have a normal built in cadence for how we...for the...for when we....the....how often we take a look at or we do some of these district plans, but to the extent that there...that there are areas where growth is expected to take place or change...change, uh, is happening, it might be useful to have some...some sort of regularization of that. But I don't necessarily think that, urn, that a complete overhaul of the comprehensive plan is the way to go right now. My one question that's sort of maybe off topic a little bit, is just where the...where the...where we stand with respect to negotiations on the fringe agreement. Russett: Urn, Council Member Weiner, this is...this is Anne. I just wanted to answer your question on the fringe area agreement. We actually have a draft, um, a pretty solid draft that we've been working with the County on and we're hoping to get it adopted by October. Um, that's kind of our goal at this point. Weiner: Thank you very much. Teague: So it does sound like, um...the majority of people that have, you know, shared so far like the South District form based code is what would be the next step. Um...and then after... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council work session of July 27, 2021. Page 15 you know, and then I think once we have that discussion, my assumption is...this topic could be brought up again, um, as to next steps a little more...in detail. One question, um...and we know that that's 30 to 60 days away...one question I wonder, um, cause I know Councilor Thomas has talked about, you know, like the town...the town planner. Is that...is that what you call it? Um, ultimately do we, you know, do we have any sense that there might...there might be....we could have some value from having a consultant of any type, and I'll also ask that maybe to our staff...to help with this big... Fruin:Yeah, I mean I think the one common myth with consultants is that it saves staff time. Bringing on consultants doesn't really save us time. We still, um, carry out those projects, urn, and often times have to spend a lot of time bringing the consultant up to speed on the community here. So, urn, don't think of a consultant as a time saver. Think of a consultant as a value-add to a process and, uh, if we feel like there's a value-add, like we did with, um, the form based code, usually we'll come to you, um, with that. Urn, if it's, um, more of a capacity, if you'd like to see the planning districts updated at a greater frequency, now I'd like to have that conversation with our staff, but my...my guess is we would come back to you and...and look for, um...uh, extra staffing, with...with, and hire somebody that...that is trained in long-term planning, that can...that can focus on that, and, uh, I think you've seen over the last few years, you know, as our staffing, uh, in that part of the division, we have the capacity for, you know, maybe one major, maybe... major, um...uh, kind of effort, so whether that's Riverfront Crossings code or this form based code or the South District update, we tend to have one major thing, uh, going on at the time, and then we have a lot of project-specific, um...um...uh, amendments, like the Forest View example that was brought up, that can take a considerable amount of time, and then we also do the more surgical code amendments that Anne referenced. So we're juggling a lot of those smaller things all the time and that won't...that won't change. Um, but if...you know, you'd like to see us moving at a pace where we do more than one of those large, either comp plan or code rewrites at a time, that's probably a discussion for another day when I can speak with staff and we could come back and let you know where a consultant might add value and where extra staff within our division might add value, and then you can make a decision on what you think is best. Teague: Can you give us, um, maybe just a brief synopsis of who is all involved within the South District form based code? Um,just from a consultant or like an outsider. Fruin: Yeah, um,Anne, is there anybody outside of Opticos? So... Russett: Besides Opticos, there was one group that did the, uh, housing market analysis. But otherwise just Opticos. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council work session of July 27, 2021. Page 16 Fruin: That was a multi-year contract and, urn, I don't recall, uh, the...the price tag, but several hundred thousand dollars to bring on a consultant, uh, like that. It's...it's, again, it's not going to save, um, save money or time usually. It's...it's, you have to really think about it as a value-add. Teague: And I don't know how, you know, we'll see the result of how the South District form based, uh, code plays out, um, but, you know, there could be some benefit to...if there is a need for some outside assistance, urn, you know, continuing with Opticos, if that seems like the...if it seemed like the relationship was good and it...it got us where we needed to be, but didn't know if there were any other, uh, timelines that people wanted to mention right now. It sounds like we're going to wait for the South District form based code to come before us. We know that that's going to be coming from P&Z, Planning and Zoning Commission, within 30 to 60 days. Any other thoughts for timeline? Thomas: Well I guess I...I...would like to briefly mention that, you know, in the core neighborhoods, uh, you know, we have been seeing a few infill projects. Uh, I don't know if I want to say there's pressure for infill development but, you know, we've seen several of them, you know, over the last year or so. Um, and I think there is, you know, those of us who, um...are concerned with that....that issue, uh, and the core neighborhoods are a little bit concerned where this will go. Urn, are we going to continue to see infill that, again, will...essentially work towards increasing the imbalance of short- term versus long-term residency, uh, and...and so that coupled with the fact that, you know, the housing in the core neighborhoods, like other parts of Iowa City, is aging, and that, I would say that aging process has been accelerated by the fact that it's had decades of long...of short-term residency. Uh, that coupled with the fact that there's been such an increase in the supply of student housing raises questions about what...what might happen with some of these houses in the core neighborhoods that...lose their viability as...as places where students choose to live. Uh, and we just see them unoccupied potentially. Um...so those are the issues that I feel we, you know, as a city need to...to be mindful of and...and, you know, I certainly think the neighborhoods are watching it, um, but, you know, what's our plan, basically. Because what's happening now isn't helping, and so, you know, it is something that, you know, I've talked to Geoff about, um, you know, we have that property on Ronalds. That could be an example of a pilot project. Um...we need to explore, uh, another way of seeing development, uh, in the core neighborhoods, because the bulk of it over the last 50 years has....has been oriented toward the short- term residency of students. And...it does seem there's both an opportunity and the possibility that it may just be a, you know, student infill 2.0, you know (laughs) so, um, I'll just mention that. You know, it's not like there's this...uh, vast amount of, um, development yield that will be generated by that. Um...but it nevertheless is...is a concern to, um, you know, the long-term residents in the core neighborhoods. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council work session of July 27, 2021. Page 17 Teague: I think infills are, uh, interesting, and I think they could have some opportunities for some of the missing middle. Thomas: Uh huh. Teague: Um,but I...but...what you run into is the established neighbors that are there, um, that have a little challenge in envisioning within their neighborhood something different. Thomas: Well that's why I think the, you know, staff has suggested the duplex is kind of the limit. Urn, you know, some cities have been calling for, you know, allowing up to four or more units in their single-family neighborhoods, but we don't...we don't have, in my view, that...I mean that might be what you would see in Portland. We don't...we don't have that kind of, from what I can see, housing pressure that Portland has. So the duplex does seem to me to be a reasonable increment to consider that if we do it well, um, will not be disruptive to the character of the neighborhood. Teague: So South District form bak...form based code we'll wait for, and...um, I guess between now and then, are there any thoughts, um, or directions that we would have for staff to work on or are we just wanting to...um, because there is a few things coming up. Mims: Well I mean it sounded to from what Anne said that, I mean, they're already kind o£.. have the Southwest District plan in sight, and also the Northeast and East District plans, that they're starting some work on, and that's where I was mentioning that I agreed with those as priorities because those are the areas for the most opportunity for annexation and large-scale greenfield development. So getting those figured out and changes made makes sense to me. Teague: Uh huh. All right. On the phone, anything else? All right. Um, I guess...I know that, um, you know, reexamining the duplex and the lot sizes and...you know, the parking regs, I think that'll...just maybe come out when we discuss the South District form based code on some level, and so, um...sound like we will pick up this conversation during that time, and unless there's anything else...we will move on to the next item on the agenda, which is Council discussion on City use of Johnson County MRAP, and that's IP3, and welcome, Chief Liston. Council discussion on City use of the Johnson County MRAP 1031: Liston: Thank you, Mayor and Council, and good afternoon. Uh, my name is Dustin Liston. I'm the Chief of Police of the Iowa City Police Department. Um, for about the last five months I've been introducing myself as the new Chief, but I figured that started to sound like an excuse, so I'm just the Chief now. So, um, I wanted to talk to you about the, uh, This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council work session of July 27, 2021. Page 18 memo that I prepared...that should be in your packet. I don't want to read it to you verbatim. I'll just go over some of the highlights, but um, in 2014, Johnson County Sheriff's office, uh, obtained a mine resistant ambush protected vehicle, what we refer to as an MRAP, which is an armored vehicle, through the, uh, Law Enforcement Support Office 1033 program, and all local law enforcement agencies in the area, uh, share that vehicle, along with the, um, maintenance costs. Um, the...the vehicle has no offensive capabilities and it just...it's basically movable ballistic armor. It provides protection. Um, it's used for high risk situations that are outside of the normal officer or patrol vehicle's capabilities and those include active shooters, armed barricaded subjects, and specifically what it's used for most in Iowa City is the service of high risk, uh, warrants and, uh, search warrants. Um, since 2014, in seven years, the Iowa City Police Department has used it seven times. Two of those seven times it was staged off-site and was never taken to the area where the warrant was being served. Urn...the decision to use the MRAP is not taken lightly. Um, I've had several conversations with people in the community (mumbled) understand the impact that the use of that vehicle has, so I want you guys to understand I don't take that decision lightly. Um, but it's based on several factors, and that's the seriousness of the alleged crime, uh, the sus...the suspect's previous violent history, any weapons involved, and any potential for, uh, civilian rescue or, uh, evacuation. Um, it also allows us to use a method that is much safer. Uh, sometimes the situation dictates that...or the circumstances around the situation dictate that we have available cover and we're able to use that cover, to use a safer method, where we call the people out of the house, to avoid going into the house. Obviously you can imagine going into a home is much more dangerous than calling the people (mumbled) So that's what we try to use cover for. Unfortunately, there are some situations in town, certain addresses, that don't provide natural cover and that's what we use the MRAP for is to bring that natural cover. Urn, without the use of the MRAP or another...or an alternative armored vehicle, it would significantly impact our ability to handle some of these high risk situations. Um, if you'd like, later I can give you specific examples that I've experienced in my career and other examples around the country. It wasn't several months ago where the State had to use one to rescue an officer who'd been shot. Urn, I also want to talk about the...violent crime that's been occurring in the city, and the warrants that we've been serving and the type of crimes that people are...we're serving these warrants have committed. In the last 18 months, we've seen a...a drastic increase in, um, shootings. In the year 2019, there were 15 confirmed shootings in Iowa City, and when we say confirmed, that means there's some sort of evidence that makes us know that it happened. Not just someone calls in, it could have been fireworks. This is someone has seen someone shooting. We've recovered evidence, whether it be casings or there's damage or someone has been hit. In 2020, that went up to 57. So it's almost four times what we had in 2019. And that...in 2020, we had, uh, 304 rounds fired that we could confirm, and 11 people were struck (mumbled) including two homicides. And to date...now I have to update the stats sadly, because since I read the memo, the numbers This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council work session of July 27, 2021. Page 19 have gone up. In 2021, to date, year-to-date, we've had 23 shootings with 159 rounds fired. Urn, eight people have been shot and hit, and three people have been killed. And from the period July 14th to July 24th, a 10-day period, we had eight shootings. So eight shootings in 10 days involving three people hit and 90 rounds fired, and most recently, I'm sure you guys saw the video of the incident in the ped mall. So what we're dealing with is violent criminals who show no regard for public safety at all, and we need to take that into consideration when we're investigating these crimes, and certainly when we're going to people's houses who we think are involved in these crimes. Urn, and lastly I just want to mention that we have never really looked at an alternative, um, for an armored vehicle, simply because the frequency in which we use it. Like I said, we use it....we've used it seven times. That's one time a year for us, um, so we haven't really looked at it, and they are exceedingly expensive. My former agency, we had three of them, but... round figures they're about a quarter million dollars a piece, so that is a significant purchase, but if the Council would like us to we can certainly look into looking at alternatives, and those alternatives get away from the militaristic look. It is an armored vehicle, so it is that, but it's designed...it's based on civilian law enforcement purposes. So it looks a little more similar to a, uh, things that people are used to seeing on the streets now, like bank trucks. It's not a bank truck, you know, I want to be completely honest, but it is designed specifically for civilian law enforcement, it's not a piece of military equipment. If the Council wishes, we can certainly look into that. I know the County has had...is having some conversations about looking into alternatives to the MRAP, as well. And I can answer any questions that you all have. Salih:And you said (mumbled) How much this cost? Liston: How much would an alternative cost? It depends on which one. There are several out there that...most popular one one is typically a....a, one by the name Lenco BearCat. Those are in the neighborhood of$250,000. So that's a significant cost. Thomas: Chief, isn't the idea that this would be a shared...this would be a shared expense? Uh, you know, the vehicle would be...there would be a pool of public entities. Liston: We could certainly look, uh, with engaging our regional partners in...in that. Uh, I'm not sure what the County's plans are. I...I've had conversations with the Sheriff. I'm not... um, but we can certainly look engaging in those conversations. Absolutely. Thomas: I do think the, you know, as you put it the civilian, something that...reflected more a civilian context, I think, is important. Liston: And honestly the usability is better too. It was designed for civilian law enforcement. The MRAP was not designed for that. It works for that, it stops bullets, but that, uh, it's This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council work session of July 27, 2021. Page 20 not...it's not as easy to drive, it's...it's very heavy, we can't take it across certain bridges in town because of the weight, um, and then the....just the mere look of it driving down a city street is....is disturbing. I certainly recognize that. Bergus: So in the seven times it's been used by the Iowa City Police Department there were five actual deployments. Is that correct? Liston: Correct. Bergus: And in any of those instances were...were any shots fired at the MRAP? Liston: No. Not in those situations, and honestly I think part of that is because the MRAP is there. Uh, that certainly has an effect and that's....in my previous career we used armored vehicles quite a bit, and that was in the hopes of ending a situation safely. Perhaps if someone looks out the window and sees that there's an armored vehicle out there, they know that, well, it might be time just to come out. And that's....that's the experience that I've had with it. Teague: Certainly...I don't know if there's any more questions for the Chief. Liston: Thank you. Salih: (mumbled) I have another question. For example, if we choose to buy a new like (mumbled) what we going to do with the old one? Liston: Well the old one's not ours, it's the County's. So that would be their decision. (both talking) Salih: I know but (mumbled) Liston: We share in the use but (both talking) Correct, Mayor Pro Tem, we share in the use but we don't share in the ownership of it or the decision of what happens to it. Salih: Oh, we don't share the ownership. Uh, my mistake. (mumbled) ownership too. Fruin: Um, Chief, assuming that there would be a regional solution, because this came from a federal government program, do you know what the process would be for the County to...to, urn, get rid of the MRAP? Liston: In my experience, uh, it's given back into that program and then they repurpose it for whatever they need it for. In my former agency we had a....a different solution, much This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council work session of July 27, 2021. Page21 older one, and when we got our BearCat, we put that back in the 1033 program and that probably ended up at some agency that had a need. Salih: You mean the County are not getting money back for returning it? Liston: No. They would not...they didn't...the only money that it cost to get it was transportation and maintenance costs, so it wouldn't be something that they would sell. No. Teague: Okay. Thank you. Weiner: Really quickly also. This is Janice. Chief, is...do you foresee something like this given, uh...given the...apparent uptick in...in use of firearms that you were describing being needed more than the...the five times it was actually deployed in the past number of years? Liston: Well again, it's always situational dependent, but...considering the amount of firearm crimes we've had, I would think we would need to anticipate more high risk warrants. Now that...we do several high risk warrants without using the MRAP. We did one this morning. Um, but depending on the situation, depending on, urn, the location where we're going and the availability of alternatives, we're constantly looking for alternatives to make the service of these warrants safer, but occasionally there are situations where we just can't avoid it, so we do use it. But to answer your question, would I see us using it more? Urn, considering the uptick in the amount of shootings we've had, that would be a possibility, but again, we constantly look at ways to do it as safely as possible. Taylor: So, Chief, the primary use would be in serving warrants. It wouldn't be to go to an active, uh, shooting incident, such as on the mall. They wouldn't have been able to, uh, get to the mall. Liston: Well, actually they are used for active shooter events. Some of you may or may not know, two years ago there was a big active shooter in El Paso, my former agency, and they certainly had armored vehicles at the scene. And what....honestly the, uh, the suspect was in custody by the time they got there, but...there's so much confusion that people don't know that. So they are used for...that is one of the primary purposes. Fortunately those are rare, but Iowa City's not immune to active shooters. We all remember what happened in the early-90s. So it could be used for that as well. That, officer rescue, citizen rescue, um...there's situations all over the country where you can point out examples of where they've been used to evacuate citizens, where they've been used to rescue downed officers. So...there's a list of things that we typically use it for, and those are...those are listed in the...in the memo. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council work session of July 27, 2021. Page 22 Taylor:And a question for Geoff. We've heard the amount, the $250,000, which...I mean that... that's a lot of money. Uh, would that...hopefully maybe we...it would be a shared thing with the County and other entities, but even if it was say 100,000, would that, um, where in the budget would that come from? The police budget or some sort of material budget? Fruin: Yeah, urn, we, um...you know, we'd analyze where the police budget is, you know, at the time of year we decide to make that purchase. Um, you know, I think you're all aware we have a....a staffing shortage at the police department right now as we're going through a hiring process. I haven't looked at numbers, but my guess is we're substantially....we'll probably finish the year substantially under budget and, uh, since we'll be short staffed for much of the coming year, um, there'll probably be some budget savings from the, um, assumptions we made for salaries when we put that budget together. So that would be our first thing is to look at the police budget to see if that can be absorbed there and if it wasn't able to be accommodated within that budget, we would come to Council with, uh, suggestions on where else to fund that. Probably, you know, our year reserves or you have contingency funds in your budget as well for unplanned expenditures. Salih: Hey, Geoff, you said earlier the...the current MRAP had (mumbled) program, am I right? Fruin: Yes, that's correct. The County obtained it, they own it, and...and they allow us and other law enforcement agencies in the area to use it. Salih: If there is another program (mumbled) or there is no program such like that...such as (mumbled) Fruin: Uh, if I heard you correctly, there...there would...not...not a program that I'm aware of, uh, to obtain, uh, like grant funding for a civilian armored vehicle. Chief, are you aware of any? Liston: No. The only program I'm aware of is the 1033 and that is military surplus. Salih: Okay, thanks. Teague:All right, thank you. All right. Council continue discussion. Bergus: Well I'm hoping we can just address the fundamental policy question of whether we continue to use the MRAP. I think when it was, um...when it was deployed at the end of May, that was, you know, really disappointing, given that just last June we had sent a letter to the County asking them to get rid of the MRAP and had the understanding that, you know, presumably we meant that we thought it shouldn't be used by anyone, you This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council work session of July 27, 2021. Page 23 know, our...our officers or others. So I...I agree with and understand the analysis of the... the Chief and our City Manager that we didn't actually take that option off the table, urn, but I think that led to a lot of, urn, frustration, not just on my part but certainly by our residents, and I'm very grateful to hear today that there's an acknowledgment that the MRAP rolling down the street, even though it's not mounted with weapons, is intimidating, is scary, is not positive for the community, it is not, urn...it does harm when it rolls through a neighborhood and I think we have to acknowledge that four of the five times that it's been deployed by our department has been in the South District, in the same neighborhood. And that certainly has an impact, particularly when it goes to the same houses repeatedly, um, on the children in the neighborhood, the children that live in those homes. So whatever kind of vehicle alternative that we may have that might, um, or that the County may acquire, that could provide the safety component of this. I think we still need to acknowledge that there's...a impact to the community in how these high risk warrants were served after the fact. Officer safety is one component, but community safety is another component, and urn, absolutely I want our officers to be safe and if we're only using this in the most dangerous of situations, I understand and appreciate that...that reasoning, but we don't go back into the neighborhoods, we don't have contact with those individuals who are negatively impacted and try and assist them through what they're going through. And I've talked with the City Manager about this and I hope that we keep that in mind, you know, as we continue to look at our plan to restructure the police and what community safety means, because this...the MRAP to me is a problem because it is an instrument of war and we're rolling it down our neighborhood streets. Fruin: I did just want to (both talking) Salih: I agree with... Fruin: Sorry! Go ahead, Mayor Pro Tem. Salih: (mumbled) No, go ahead, Mayor! Go ahead, uh, City Manager! Fruin: Okay, um...the, uh, suggestion that Laura had, she did address with me after the last use of the MRAP and...and it's a good suggestion, um, and we have reached out to Mobile Crisis to make sure that they can be a part of that, that team and that response. Um...uh, if you look at the press release that the department issued today, even though we did not use the MRAP, it was a high risk warrant and thus we had a....a pretty significant number of personnel, um, on that scene. That press release did include information on Mobile Crisis, and again the Chief, uh, and Captains made Mobile Crisis aware so that they could, urn, follow up with anybody, um, that, um...uh, was having trouble processing, you know, that type of incident in their neighborhood, and I think that, you know, we'll have This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council work session of July 27, 2021. Page 24 to continue to grow that partnership, but um...we have taken that advice and...and at least started down that path. Teague: So I guess for me...oh, go ahead, Mayor Pro Teen! Sorry(laughs) Salih: That's okay. I just want to say I really agree with, uh, Council Bergus on this, uh, because ...yeah, during Black Life Matter, that one of the thing we said we going to get rid of it, and I think the County also willing to do the same thing, and...as...by the, you know, the Chief himself said this is really intimidating to the residents when it (mumbled) and like everything said I just don't (mumbled) you know (mumbled) Laura said, but this is...this is really...I think something that we have to get rid of it and uh, I know it gonna cost us some money to...to do the, you know, the civilian ones, but I thinks it doesn't matter at this point, because if we commit it from the beginning, we have to follow our commit... commitment. So, uh...for me, I really want to get rid of it and figure out another safe solution or...safe, uh, another like equipment, civilian-looking one or whatever it costs, we should just figure it out...how to budget for it. Yeah! But I'm in support of getting rid of it. Thanks! Teague: So I would, uh,just piggyback on Mayor Pro Tem's statement of, uh, in favor of getting rid of it. I think there's been lots of reasons shared so far about, um, its impacts on, you know,just the...the aftermath of seeing something like this, and even in the midst of this big armored vehicle coming through the community. Um, but I do want to emphasize that there's still a safety risk that we have to, um, consider here, and so...you know, 2019 there's 15 confirmed shots, um, 56 rounds followed, uh, fired; 2020, 57; 307 rounds, urn, 11 individuals were shot and two died. 2021 there were 17 confirmed shots fired, urn, and I know that this is still, uh, not updated in the memo, but that was 144 rounds, and urn, fired, and then in one incident there were 57 rounds, and so when we're looking at, you know, having this discussion, we do have to really keep this at the forefront of our mind, and in 2021, you know, there were six individuals shot and three individuals lost their lives, and so this is something that Iowa City has not dealt with, um, you know, on a consistent, um...basis as we're seeing, and just this Saturday, urn, where the shots took place,just a couple of hours before I was sitting on the bench in the ped mall, urn, where the shots were directed, and it was only about...I left maybe about 11:30. So just two hours before, you know, those shots were not...they don't have eyes (laughs) but they went in that direction, and so...innocent people standing by can lose their lives. So this is a...this is a real issue that we have to talk about. Um...and I understand, you know, the South District it was noted that, you know, the same houses, they've been problematic, um, with, urn...I guess suspicion, urn, that I have is suspicious, um, involvement in some inappropriate things, and so people in the South District that I've talked to, and I'm from Chicago by the way(laughs) and so, um, I still have family in Chicago, and there are... we know in Chicago there's lots of shootings going on, and I have, uh, family. Some are, This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council work session of July 27, 2021. Page 25 you know, literally terrified, urn, you know, and it...weans and wanes, I must say. Urn, but, um, there have been people shot, urn,just innocent people standing by, and so when events happen in a neighborhood where there needs to be apprehension, you know...there is this protective piece, this vehicle, that can provide that, urn, and whether that's, you know, someone (mumbled) 57 rounds in this community, and people are outside. There's a vehicle that people can run to, get in, and be protected. Urn, I think those are some of the things that we have to think about. The other thing is, um, and...and I want to reiterate—I say get rid of the MRAP. So this is not what I'm talking about. I think we need to, urn, look at another option, urn, and as Mayor Pro Tern just said, we need to figure out the budget for it. So the BearCat, urn, the Lenco BearCat, urn, if that's the one that we're going to look at. So, urn, the other thing I want to mention is, um, the families that have lost loved ones. That is a real thing that is happening in our community, to gun shots, um, people are losing their lives, and so we want to do what we can to certainly be aware of, urn, the mental, um...anguish this puts on people, you know, in the communities, or whatever communities this vehicle shows up in, urn, the safety part that not only is for our officers but also for people in the nearby, um, area, and what I would suggest that Council consider is, uh, giving direct...direction to our City, urn, giving direct direction at not using the MRAP, urn, as well as giving, urn, maybe a time frame of acquiring, urn, another alternative vehicle, which'll be the, uh, BearCat, urn, and I think in the interim, between now and then, you know, if there should be a need where this vehicle should be, urn, needed, and...and I know that there are some...like we're not over the police department specifically on some level, um, in the middle of, um, calls, but I do wonder if we did want to set up some type of a safety net that if that is going to be utilized that, urn, you have to get a majority of Council, and that is something that, uh, our....our, urn, City Attorney would have to talk about. Mims: I guess for me, urn...I understand, or try to understand the...the trauma and response of people with this rolling down their street. The part of the question that is in my mind is if we make this move from the MRAP to the BearCat...is the reaction going to be that much different...for people in the neighborhoods? I don't know. I...I truly, honestly do not know and so my question becomes is it worth spending...if...assuming that you need on certain occasions to have an armored vehicle for the safety of our police officers and the safety of the public. Does it make sense to spend $250,000 to get a different vehicle, which may or may not generate the same trauma and response from the people in the neighborhood. My concern is...I guess that we go through this and people get the idea that we are getting rid of the MRAP and that means there will be no armored vehicle and then...the BearCat shows up and the response is, well, wait a minute, you...you didn't do what you said you were going to do. We thought you were saying we aren't using these vehicles any more and yeah, maybe this one's three feet shorter, I don't know,but you know, yeah, it's smaller, but...to me it just seems like the same kind of thing as we had before. So why did you go out and spend $250,000 when you haven't really changed it. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council work session of July 27, 2021. Page 26 Maybe on the flip side they'll say, hey, that's a whole lot better. I don't know, but to me, before we go down that path, I think we need to do more outreach in that neighborhood. And get...and show them pictures, show them pictures of what these look like and I would hope from this Council's perspective that we are not going to say...that our officers cannot use these vehicles to protect themselves and the citizens and our residents in that area when we have a really high risk situation. I would certainly hope we aren't saying that. But before we make a huge change, let's make sure it's really going to get the results that we are thinking it's going to. Bergus: I don't think Iowa City should buy a BearCat. I don't think that that solves the problem, for just the reasons that you were saying, Susan, and I think that the fact that it's owned by the County and managed by the Sheriff's department means that it does remain a last resort. It's not sitting in our garage, it's not readily available, it's not, `Shucks, we paid a lot of money for this, we better use the tool that we have.' And I think if we purchase one, we'll...that(laughs) there will be some element of that, conscious or unconscious, in addition to it potentially being problematic in the same way as if we don't...address the underlying issue. Teague: So if I understood you correctly(both talking) Weiner: Could I(both talking) Teague: Go right ahead please! Weiner: This is, uh, Councilor Weiner. I have...uh, to me we're...there, we have two, at least two separate issues. The one is, from my perspective, military vehicles do not belong in a city. I have lived and worked places where military vehicles, uh, roll down the street, uh, and I understand full well exactly how traumatic it is and how...how difficult it is to live with that. They do not, in my view, belong in a city, uh, and...so that's one issue, and for me that's a separate issue. The other issue is we have, uh, probably in part because of the...the gun laws that have been passed at the State legislature, we have, uh...and for other reasons that I may not understand, we have an uptick in gun violence. And what I want to hear is sort of an overview and...of what are the best ways to deal with that, how do we as a community, how does the police department, how does law enforcement in general, what are the tools to deal with that, how could we best approach that, and to me these are two separate issues. Taylor: That's a good point, uh, Councilor Weiner, cause I think...I keep hearing, um...to address the issues and...and talking about the number of times that the MRAP had been used in the South District (mumbled) that appears to be to need where the highest volume of these shorts fired and violent incidents have been occurring over the last few years, um, This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council work session of July 27, 2021. Page 27 so I think, uh, we do have to look at that and...and do some more community education and...and get to the underlying reason what's going on there in...in that area. Thomas: The, um, yeah, it's...it's always interesting, you know, how we frame these statistics. When it was described as five deployments, you know, I think at least my mind was working, you know, sort of a distribu...there's no pattern to those five, uh, but when, Laura, you described that it was actually four of the five were in the South District, that's a very different story, and um...a very concerning story. So, yeah, the...the, and I agree with you, Susan, that...and we need to...and it does, especially insofar as there's this concentration of its use, ask residents in the South District, you know, show them what... what the alternative is. I...perhaps there are other alternatives. I'm...I certainly would like to think there's more than one option beyond the, um, the BearCra...BearCat. Maybe there isn't, but...um...the, give them an opportunity to, um, see what the alternative is and what their response is. And then as we were just saying, as we saw there is a concentration of the use of it. Where are the shootings occurring? Is there a pattern there, urn, as well, and uh...that is, as Janice was saying, it's kind of a separate issue, but what...if there is a pattern, that may....may be beneficial in the sense that we may be able to come up with strategies. It's both problematic and potentially valuable that we can, uh, come up with a strategy specific to that area that, or areas, uh, where the shootings are taking place. Bergus: I think if we spend a quarter million dollars on bolstering community violence interruption and trying to actually engage in, you know, stopping what some of the underlying issues might be...that...that may be more impactful than, you know, purchasing the BearCat. I...I would recommend that we talk to the County and see what their intentions are. I heard from one Supervisor at one point that they thought that the intent was that they were going to be purchasing one to replace the MRAP, and if that's the case and, you know, the use would be on the same criteria that it is now, so we would understand it is not something that would be, you know, rolled through neighborhoods without extreme...um, situations, and engage those neighborhoods, and work on underlying issues. That'd be kind of my recommendation. Mims: I think the engagement is a huge part, because I think what we also have to recognize is you have people traumatized by a military vehicle coming through their neighborhood, but the majority of those people want to be safe. They (laughs) they don't want those people that are firing all these guns in their neighborhood either. So they want their children to be able to go out and play safely. They want to be able to get out and go to their car and go to work in the morning or whatever, or not have shots come through their house in the middle of the night and kill them or one of their children. So I think you have the majority of those people, in the south side, those south side residents who very much want...the police to be successful in investigating and hopefully prosecuting This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council work session of July 27, 2021. Page 28 individuals that are causing these issues and so we need to be talking to them, and we need to be explaining why we are doing what we are doing and how, yes, it's keeping our officers safe, but it's also keeping residents in the area of those high risk warrants too. I think we've seen too many cases, uh, across this country with...whether they are always no-knock or that type of, uh...serving of a warrant, where you just go bashing into the house and what somebody's immediate reaction, if they happen to have a gun and they don't know who's coming through the door, lots of times is they start firing as well, and so to avoid those things, you know, having that armored vehicle, it would seem to me, does in certain cases have a place, and so talking to, educating, explaining to those residents why we use it, when we use, showing the pictures, I think that engagement's really important. Teague: I do hear a, um, maybe...go right ahead please! Salih: No, go ahead, Mayor! Teague: Oh, what I was going to say is that I do kind of hear a consensus, um, on reach...on having staff reach out to...or the Chief reach out to the County, and, you know, directly learn about their intent to purchase, um, another vehicle, um...so we'll...Council in agreement with that? Mims: Oh yeah, I think we should know what they're doing(both talking) Teague: Um...and then it does sound like, you know, we can probably talk about some opportunities for engagement, um...probably in a near future, or if we want to go ahead and just kind of...you know...ask staff to give us some thoughts (mumbled) Fruin: Well I guess my question is, cause I'm hearing different things from...from Councilors, we'll need some direction from the majority. Um, we can work with the County and if...if they're going to get a replacement vehicle, you can count on probably, um, about a year from the time you order to the time it's delivered, for a vehicle like this. So there's going to be a significant period of time, um, in which we're still dealing with gun violence where these types of high risk situations are likely to come up, and the direction we'll need from you all is...is the MRAP in our toolbox, or not, while this other vehicle may be on order. If it's not, you just have to understand that there are, um, investigations and warrants that...there are warrants we won't serve and investigations that won't proceed as quickly, um, or as successfully as...as they otherwise probably would of, cause we're not going to serve those warrants and...and have our officers there if we don't think it's safe. Um, so if that's okay then we can do...you know, that's...that's a fair policy decision you can make, um, but that affects the type of engagement that we do. Um...uh, if we still have the MRAP as a tool, that's going to change some of the discussion around This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council work session of July 27, 2021. Page 29 the engagement. So that's kind of most importantly what we need. I understand the desire to replace the vehicle and I think we can absolutely work towards that in one way, shape, or form,but, uh...it's this interim period that I think you all need to be very clear to us about. Salih: I just want to ask you, earlier I see the Police Chief mention that (mumbled) been used seven times, or something like this? Fruin: Seven times in...in the seven years that it's been available, yes. Salih:Yes, then why we assuming now we going to use it more? Fruin: Because the...the, uh, number of incidents involving weapons is increasing and weapons is a, uh, a very high, uh, weighted factor when it comes to making deployment decisions. So the increase in gun crimes would lead to increase in warrants, uh, involving those gun crimes. Salih: I don't know, but I...I still believe that, uh..you know (mumbled) to use...and we have to figure out something else, as soon as possible. Teague: I...I do wonder if Council, um, I did make a, you know, a suggestion as far as like super majority, um, on its use. I don't know if people would...I know some of the stuff happened really quickly(both talking) Fruin: Yeah, and I think the challenge, Mayor, is, um, we can't announce where we're going to be doing a search warrant at, and...and by getting Council approval, we would essentially be doing that. We would be noticing the public on where warrants were being executed and that's...that's not poss...that's not going to...that's not going to work. Thomas: I guess one...one thought I'm having is, um...as we're talking about engaging the South District on the alternative versus the MRAP, uh, engaging the community on this part of the discussion. What do we do in this interim period? You know, do we, um...how does...how does the South District feel about the deployment of MRAP in this interim period? Um...that seems to me the area of most concern is...is there. I don't know that...I mean the use of the MRAP elsewhere, I'm not hearing that things are...uh...that there's this pushback or concern about its use, but um... Mims: Well, it hasn't been there, that's why. I mean (both talking) Thomas: Right (laughs) but... This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council work session of July 27, 2021. Page 30 Mims: I mean there's no pushback cause it hasn't been there. Only once has it been anywhere else. Taylor: Someone brought up coordinating with the County and I think that's going to be also a very important part of this, because, I mean, this whole discussion would be null and void if...if they eliminate the MRAP, uh, give it back to...to the government. Then it's no longer there and then...so what do we want to do as a group and as a city. Mims: Yeah, I think the question would be whether they did that before they got a replacement. Fruin: Yeah (both talking) Mims: But I think in the meantime we have to give staff direction. I don't like the use of it, but given the safety that it can provide for our officers and the public, I am supportive of allowing its use until we make further determinations on it, replacement vehicle or other safe strategies. Bergus: I don't think it should be in the toolbox. I think we can find alternatives, and I would expect that those alternatives would not be more...um, violent in terms of moving to, uh, dynamic entry rather than, you know, but I...I appreciate what our City Manager said, that there may be some period of time in which...we're taking different approaches and not pursuing things as...in...in the way that we're using the MRAP now. Mims:And the problem (both talking) Salih: ...if there is another community they don't have that kind of tools and what they do (mumbled) Fruin: The question was communities that don't have this tool available, what...what would they do? Salih: Yes! Liston: I came up in the police department when we didn't have these tools and it was a lot more dangerous doing my job, period. We took a lot more risks, and honestly I'm frankly going to be hard pressed to ask our SRT guys to do their job without this equipment, and I...and I wouldn't expect them to want to do their job without this equipment. I can't stress to you enough how infrequently we use it, and how seriously I take this, but I've been to a place where 23 people have been murdered at one time and I know what happens when the public is panicked and they don't know what's going on and when one of those big trucks rolls in, they're not scared of the truck anymore, because they're This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council work session of July 27, 2021. Page 31 scared of the people who've been running around shooting people. So this is a real threat. This is not just, you know, us driving this thing around. I...I commit to you that we're not driving this thing around to upset people, and we need to do a better job of getting with the public. I attend the South District's meetings to talk about that. I've got pictures of my kid in the back of our BearCat when he was three-years-old. We need to do things like that. We need to let them know that is a tool and this is what we use it for, but I appreciate, I do appreciate the impact it has and I want you to know that I appreciate that, but thinking that there could be an officer laying somewhere that we can't get to, cause I've seen that happen, that we can't get to because we don't have the equipment, I can't imagine that we would want to make that decision. I mean these are the most extreme circumstances. I can give you the statistics on how many times we've done high risk warrants, SRT warrants. We use the MRAP on less than a quarter of the time we have high risk warrants, so we're looking for other alternatives, and again, I...I just can't stress that enough. That's my commitment to you guys, it's my commitment to the community. I don't want to see that thing driving around! I don't! But if we have to use it, I'd rather see that thing driving around than go to another officer's funeral or go to a citizen's funeral that we weren't able to rescue, and I've been to six line of duty death funerals in my career, and I don't want to go to any more. Okay? So, again, I'm sorry I'm a little passionate about this, but it means something to me because I've sat in the back of one of those things when people were shooting, and it's real, okay? And seeing what I've seen, I watched that video just like you guys did, from Saturday night, and that scares the crap out of me! I was down there too, with my wife and kids. Not at 1:00 in the morning, but I was down there! And that's scary, and we need to be able to feel like we have the tools to address that. Most of the time we can do it without that tool, but sometimes we can't, and I would hate to think that we gave up an opportunity to arrest one of these people because we didn't have the tools. Thomas: So...so, Chief, am I hearing that you've had conversations in the South District where you said essentially what you just said? Liston:Absolutely! Thomas:And how...what was their response? Liston: Well, they...they expressed their concerns over it, which I completely get, but I expressed my concern. It was two days after there was a murder down there, and it was directly related to a murder investigation. So, um, believe me, I get it,but I also know the community members are traumatized by the violence that's going on, and we need to address that, and that's one tool that we avoid using, but sometimes we have to use. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council work session of July 27, 2021. Page 32 Teague: In the interest of time, because we are, urn, needing to conclude our time here. I wanted to maybe just kind of give some direction to staff, um, before we end this topic. So it does sound like at least there's a majority of support for, um, communication with the County on just having the conversation about alternative vehicle, the BearCat. Is that what I'm hearing? Yes, so I hear that. Salih: Yes! Teague:And then as far as the...interim use...um, does...I know I've heard, like Geoff has said, there's been a few things, uh, we just heard Councilor Mims say, you know, in the interim we need something, urn, I...I guess, and then I heard Councilor, um...(laughs) (several talking and laughing) Bergus say, um...maybe more parameters around its use, or not use, I'm not sure exactly what I heard, but maybe I'll put it out there, urn, who would be...at least for the interim, given what the Chief just said is very extra cautionary usage, but maybe...it does sound like we need to have more conversation, um...and we can probably bring this back on our next agenda or when it seems appropriate. Urn,just in the interim, urn, until we have another conversation, would be okay in the most extreme situations that they deem appropriate would use the M...MRAP, wanted to know what people thoughts are or...I would need to know so we can give them some direction. So are people supportive of that? Salih: (mumbled) really think that, uh, we should not use it, period, and uh, it's not supposed to be in our tools (mumbled) Teague: Okay. Um, Councilor Weiner, do you have thoughts or...sorry to put you on the spot. Weiner: Um, I agree with Mayor Pro Tem. Teague: Okay. Yeah, so for me, what I do know is that, urn (laughs) if...if there's going to be, and I don't care what neighborhood you're in, a shooting, an active shooting, and there are people going down, we don't have anything else in the toolkit, I have to believe that our, um, well the Chief...and I totally want to get rid of it, but I also believe that we need something different, so between now and our next meeting, I...I think it would not be, um, in the best interest of all of the residents in our community, especially, urn, individuals that are, urn, involved with, you know, some of this violence happening, where there's 57 rounds on one...on one incident, so I would say until our next meeting, urn, that would be in the toolkit. Salih: But, Mayor, uh, the City Manager did not say that. The City Manager said between now and (mumbled) civilian vehicle would do the same thing. It would take (mumbled) This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council work session of July 27, 2021. Page 33 Teague: Right (both talking) No, and I'm only referring to our next conversation on this, not for the 12 months,just for the next conversation. Salih: I still say no. Okay? Teague: Okay. Great. Mims: I just...I mean I said yes, and I'll just say one other thing. I...these...these are hard conversations, and these are affecting people deeply, but I would rather have somebody affected deeply by an MRAP going down their street than by them or one of their children being killed by a stray bullet coming through their house. Teague: And I'm just going to go around and get some...what are your thoughts? Taylor: I agree with Susan. I think...and, uh, I appreciate what Councilor Bergus has said and especially in regards to last summer's incidents, that was sort of a totally different thing, where we all together said maybe that wasn't the appropriate use for that vehicle at that time and so we sort of jumped on the bandwagon to say let's...we shouldn't use it anymore, but now in those kinds of things, as...as Councilor Mims has discussed, you know, if there's active shooting going on or if there's a dangerous situation where it's appropriate, and I would trust the Chief and...and his staff and...and their decision on that. They're not just going to witty nilly every day go out and use this vehicle. So that's my opinion. Yes, temporarily that...I agree. Teague: Thank you. Thomas: Um, yeah, I'm very sympathetic to the Chief's argument. Um, I do believe there has to be a very high level of community engagement in this interim period, if...if it is going to be...remain in the toolbox for this interim period, uh, that, you know, the policy and the use is...very clearly explained, you know, that this..to the, um, community. So...so that they understand the...the context in which it's being deployed, uh, and it's being used with high...high level discretion, uh, reluctantly I think I would almost want to say, but at this point it's the only thing we have, so I...I just...to say that we just categorically cannot use it, um...I...I don't think we can be categorical, uh, given the situation we're in. Teague: Councilor Bergus? Bergus: Um, not in the toolbox. Teague: I'm sorry, say that again. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council work session of July 27, 2021. Page 34 Bergus: I said not in the toolbox. Teague: Okay, all right. So, um, it will remain in the toolbox until we have our next conversation. We have a majority of four, and then we will...because this is such a highly sensitive item, I think that we should have this at our next work session, if; urn, we should try to figure it out. Fruin: Is there anything, uh, that you want staff to prepare for your next discussion? Teague: I know you're going to reach out to the County and just give us an update, urn, and I think it would be fair to say what other options are in the toolbox, urn, to bring to Council. Okay, thanks. With that, um, any other conversation we will hold until after the meeting. Uh, we'll just come back to work session just to make sure that there's anything that people want to...actually we'll just do the Council updates then. At the end of the formal meeting. If nothing else, we'll be adjourned until 6:00 PM. This represents only a reasonably accurate transcription of the Iowa City City Council work session of July 27, 2021.